Last Play of the Game Question

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by cookie

Since this situation involves a batted ball ("hit to OF") not an award, the appeal plays at 2nd and 3rd are still valid in OBR. R1 must touch second and R2 must touch 3rd - the bases to which they have been forced respectively. If an appeal is made on each runner (irrespective of order in this case where the play is relaxed), both appeals will be upheld and no runs will score. Game continues. The same would be for FED.

Regarding my bolded part of this post, has this changed?

My latest BRD ruling #12 says order of appeals on forced bases matter. It quotes FED back in 2003 and PBUC in 2000. My 2010 WUM says the order doesn't matter if the force existed at the time of miss. 8.4.1.c. in the WUM.

[cookie]

Originally Posted by umpjim

Regarding my bolded part of this post, has this changed?

My latest BRD ruling #12 says order of appeals on forced bases matter. It quotes FED back in 2003 and PBUC in 2000. My 2010 WUM says the order doesn't matter if the force existed at the time of miss. 8.4.1.c. in the WUM.

My understanding (via Jacksa/Roder during relaxed action) is that if the force was in place when the missed base occurred, then the order doesn't matter as long as it's the 3rd out in order to negate any run(s) scored. I believe the example Jacksa/Roder gives has to do with R1 and R3, 1 out. Batter hits a double but misses 1st base. R1 missed second on the way to scoring. Defense starts the appeal of BR missing 1st base (upheld - out number 2) and then appeals R1 missing 2nd (upheld - out number 3, still considered a force out even though BR has been declared out for missing 1st base). Therefore, R3's run does not count.

HOWEVER, if R1 had missed 3rd base on his way to scoring and the appeals took place, then the order would matter. If the Defense starts the appeal with the BR missing 1st, then that would be the 2nd out (NOT the 3rd!), and then it appeals R1 missing 3rd base (upheld, 3rd out - not a force out). Therefore, R3's run counts.

IF the Defense starts the appeal with R1 missing 3rd, then that's the 2nd out. Then it appeals the BR missing 1st base (upheld - thus the 3rd out). Therefore, R3's run does not count as the BR made the 3rd out before reaching 1st.

PBUC follows the same format and I'm sure the same is true for FED (though I will start looking through the rule/case books starting with your citation 8.4.1.c).

Edited: Your cite is from the WUM, not FED casebook. my mistake on that (as I have just read the Fed casebook 8.4.1 c and it has nothing to do with appeals!)

[umpjim]

While the BRD cites Hopkins as saying that "When a force play situation is in effect, the appeals must be made in proper order.", the 2 plays given as examples are similar to your "However" play in that there is one miss of 1B and a non forced miss. The BRD rulings agree with what you say in this regard and the order does matter.
I probably read too much into the BRD Order of Appeals cite. Based on your JR and my WUM I agree with you that the order of appeals of multiple missed forced bases or forced and 1B does not matter.
Probably the only change is my new comprehension of the matter.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by umpjim

While the BRD cites Hopkins as saying that "When a force play situation is in effect, the appeals must be made in proper order.", the 2 plays given as examples are similar to your "However" play in that there is one miss of 1B and a non forced miss. The BRD rulings agree with what you say in this regard and the order does matter.
I probably read too much into the BRD Order of Appeals cite. Based on your JR and my WUM I agree with you that the order of appeals of multiple missed forced bases or forced and 1B does not matter.
Probably the only change is my new comprehension of the matter.

I would imagine Evans has the outs in the order they are called. At least that's what he explained to me on an unusual play that occurred.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

I would imagine Evans has the outs in the order they are called. At least that's what he explained to me on an unusual play that occurred.

The outs will always be in order. Whether the force play was in effect when the appeal occurred was at question. Cookies post cleared this up for me. Could you post the unusual play?

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by umpjim

The outs will always be in order. Whether the force play was in effect when the appeal occurred was at question. Cookies post cleared this up for me. Could you post the unusual play?

High fly ball to F7. Dugouts close to field. batter veers directly into dugout.

F7 misses ball. Runners take off from their base. Throw goes into F5 who touches base, and throws to F4 who also touches the base.

But batter was out for abandonment first, which then took off the force. Tags must be applied for outs.

I was somewhat lagging at HP looking for tag at 1B, and just happened to notice him over my shoulder.

It was summer league ball, crappy game, and no biggie.

Got a safe call at 3B, and out call at 2B. Led to some confusion, but it worked itself out in the end.

[WWUmp]

Originally Posted by starman

I think I did a bad job of wording my orignal question. How about this....

Bases Loaded, bottom of the last inning, tie game. OBR rules. Batter hits a ground ball to 3B. Defense turns what appears to be a 5-4 double play. However, the batter and runner on third are very fast. The run scores and the batter tags first before the out is recorded at 2B.

My interp of 4.09b is that the game was over before the out at second. The runs scores and the game is over. If the same thing had happened in the first inning, no runs scores. Am I wrong?

My understanding of 4.09(b), "...the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base," only applies to game ending situations when the defense really has no chance at preventing the winning run from scoring.

For example, the defense won't be able to prevent a BB with bases loaded from scoring the winning run, or prevent a HB with bases loaded from scoring the winning run, or prevent a HR with bases loaded from scoring the winning run as long as (as worded in 4.09(b)) R3 and BR advance and touch home plate and 1B. In these game ending situations, 4.09(b) does not require R1 or R2 to advance and touch the next base.

But starman's fact pattern does not describe a game ending situation. Therefore, 4.09(b) does not apply. The "exception" in 4.09(a) applies which states "...A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made... by any runner being forced out..." I don't think this is controversial. It's clear to me that the defense prevented the run from scoring (under 4.09(a)) by executing the double play (explained in starman's facts) to end the 1/2 inning and the game continues.

[cookie]

"...For example, the defense won't be able to...prevent a HR with bases loaded from scoring the winning run as long as (as worded in 4.09(b)) R3 and BR advance and touch home plate and 1B."

I believe a HR (a batted ball) out of the park still requires R1 & R2 to touch 2nd and 3rd respectively. Also, if R1 or R2 should abandon his base path after either one has passed 2nd or 3rd respectively and either is called out before R3 crosses the plate (time play), then R3's run will not count. So R3 is not necessarily an automatic run in this case...

[WWUmp]

Originally Posted by cookie

"...For example, the defense won't be able to...prevent a HR with bases loaded from scoring the winning run as long as (as worded in 4.09(b)) R3 and BR advance and touch home plate and 1B."

I believe a HR (a batted ball) out of the park still requires R1 & R2 to touch 2nd and 3rd respectively. Also, if R1 or R2 should abandon his base path after either one has passed 2nd or 3rd respectively and either is called out before R3 crosses the plate (time play), then R3's run will not count. So R3 is not necessarily an automatic run in this case...

Quite right. 4.09(b) applies to "awarded" bases and not on a batted ball. My bad.

"Also, if R1 or R2 should abandon his base path after either one has passed 2nd or 3rd respectively and either is called out before R3 crosses the plate (time play), then R3's run will not count. So R3 is not necessarily an automatic run in this case..."

This is true on batted ball but not on a base award. R3 and R1 get their base regardless of what R1 & R2 do and as soon as R1 & R3 touch, game over. Also, there couldn’t be a time play with bases loaded and the runners advance as the result of an awarded base.

[cookie]

"Also, if R1 or R2 should abandon his base path after either one has passed 2nd or 3rd respectively and either is called out before R3 crosses the plate (time play), then R3's run will not count. So R3 is not necessarily an automatic run in this case..."

This is true on batted ball but not on a base award.

True, a home run (with bases loaded) is a batted ball.