Last Play of the Game Question

[starman]

mbyron,

how is my play different than Padres/D-backs game that I posted above?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by BSUmp16

Not disputing what you say, but do you have a rule cite for FED?

My initial post was assuming that the out at 3B was recorded before the out at 2B, so that both were force outs. The OP later clarified that this is the play he intended to post.

2012 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 18: In the bottom of the eighth inning, the score is tied, with the bases loaded and two outs. B6 draws a walk and runs and touches first base. B1 [sic: should be R1] trots in from third and touches home plate. B2 [sic], however, begins celebrating and never touches third base. RULING: All runners must legally touch the next base in advancing. If the defense legally appeals while at least one umpire is still on the field of play, B2 is declared out for the third out. Since this out would be a “force” out, no runs would score and the game would continue into the ninth inning. (8-2-1, 8-2-6j, 9-1-1a and d)

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by starman

mbyron,

how is my play different than Padres/D-backs game that I posted above?

The MLB game involved a walk, where no advancing runner was liable to be put out. The rules require that the BR touch first and that (to score) R3 touch HP. At that point, the game is over: the other runners are not required to complete their award UNDER OBR.

Your play involved a batted ball with bases loaded, and the advancing runners were liable to be put out. The double play resulted in a 3rd out that was a force play. By rule, no runs can score.

[starman]

Thanks. I agree with you for NFHS. But I still think that the run counts in OBR.

Also, can you help me with some terminology. Are "Fed" rules = NFHS rules?

I am not an ump. Just a coach who learns a lot by reading this board.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by starman

Also, can you help me with some terminology. Are "Fed" rules = NFHS rules?

I am not an ump. Just a coach who learns a lot by reading this board.

Yep. We commonly refer to NFHS rules as "FED" here.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by starman

Thanks. I agree with you for NFHS. But I still think that the run counts in OBR.

Also, can you help me with some terminology. Are "Fed" rules = NFHS rules?

I am not an ump. Just a coach who learns a lot by reading this board.

Yes, FED = NFHS. Only in baseball (in my experience) do officials refer to NFHS rules as FED.

You're mistaken. The rule you cited was 4.09b, but that rule does not supersede 4.09a. No run can score when the third out of the inning is a force play. 4.09b simply specifies who must advance on a game ending play.

Others will be along presently to confirm this uncontroversial ruling, in case you don't believe me. And, good for you that you study the rules!

[Matt]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Why would this be denied OBR?

It wouldn't.

Per JEA:
"If the winning run is forced in as the result of a batted ball, all runners including the batter-runner are obligated to touch their next bases. The BR must advance to and touch 1st base, and any other runner forced must advance to and touch his next base. If any such forced runner fails to do so, a force out appeal play is in order; and if it is sustained for the third out, no run shall count since the third out was, in effect, a force out. If this appeal force out is not the third out, the runner shall be declared out but the winning run scores."

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Matt

It wouldn't.

Per JEA:
"If the winning run is forced in as the result of a batted ball, all runners including the batter-runner are obligated to touch their next bases. The BR must advance to and touch 1st base, and any other runner forced must advance to and touch his next base. If any such forced runner fails to do so, a force out appeal play is in order; and if it is sustained for the third out, no run shall count since the third out was, in effect, a force out. If this appeal force out is not the third out, the runner shall be declared out but the winning run scores."

Not what 4.09b says.

Edited to add: also not the way MLB calls it, correctly, according to 4.09b. The video posted in post 14 is an example:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...rtnerId=rss_sd

That's a walk, not a batted ball, but the same rule applies (and is ruled the same).

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Not what 4.09b says.

If we did not have that interp then with bases loaded and 2 outs on a ground ball to let's say the SS, R1 and R2 could peel off cheering while the BR crosses 1B and R3 scored.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by umpjim

If we did not have that interp then with bases loaded and 2 outs on a ground ball to let's say the SS, R1 and R2 could peel off cheering while the BR crosses 1B and R3 scored.

They can do whatever they want. With 2 outs, the play will be at 1B. If they interfere, that will be the third out.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mbyron

They can do whatever they want. With 2 outs, the play will be at 1B. If they interfere, that will be the third out.

With R1 abd two outs and a GB to SS the play will likely be to 2B.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

With R1 abd two outs and a GB to SS the play will likely be to 2B.

Might be. Your quibble kinda misses the point.

[umpjim]

So, if the SS throws to 2B, do you have an out or tell everyone game over because R1 did not have to complete his base running responsibility? (edited to correct R2 to R1)

[SAump]

Some play for fun. Some play to win. Time to backtrack to clean up the spin.

Failing to advance on Base hit will lead to force outs, appeals in proper order, possibly no runs and extra innings, 4.09a.

Walk will lead to winning run, ballgame, OBR 4.09b. Except FED 2012 interp 18 which is not an appeal play. Yeah, I know it says legal appeal, but the ruling will not be granted. bTw, it's not a force out either. Haha, who wrote that?

Learn one thing, told another.

[Dave Reed]

This thread offers the reader incorrect rulings, starting with post #2. It seems to me that the posts by mbyron are inconsistent and confusing.

Here's what I believe to be the correct (and non-controversial) interpretation of the rules for bases loaded, bottom of the potential last inning.

All rule sets treat a batted ball in the same way, with no difference between OBR and FED/NCAA. All three rule sets make no distinction between the potential last inning and any other inning. All runners are subject to force outs and appeals.

OBR treats awards different to NCAA/FED, as detailed in 4.09(b).

In posts #15, #18, and #21, mbyron seems to be agreeing with the above synopsis. But in post #17, he seems to be justifying his wrong answer in #2 (which says OBR and FED rules are different for a batted ball) with a reference to the order of the appeals and citing a caseplay involving an award. In #23, he asserts that the principle and rule is the same for batted balls and awards, seemingly disagreeing with the JEA on this point. Finally, he says in post #25 that on a batted ball R1 and R2 can do whatever they want.

So, will the real mbyron please stand up?