Appeal or Out

[SAump]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Interesting case, which might not be as obvious as everyone seems to think. I'm assuming FED rules and that the order of events was as follows and in quick but clear succession:

1. R1 passes HP without touching, thereby acquiring the base subject to appeal.

2. BR put out at 3B for the 3rd out of the inning.

3. R1 returns to HP to rectify his base-running error and touches HP.

If that's what happened, then some umpires would NOT score the run. The rationale would be that, although R1 initially acquired the base prior to the 3rd out and so provisionally scored, he did so illegally and left himself open to appeal. When he returned to touch HP, his touch was legal but occurred after the 3rd out, when no run can score. That touch would thus negate both the possible appeal AND the run. This might have been the PU's reasoning in the OP.

Those who disagree with this interp have 2 unpleasant options if the defense appeals:

A) If they uphold the appeal despite the runner touching HP, then they are ruling that the runner cannot ever rectify his error. No rule support for that: 8.2.1D is a clear case of a runner touching HP and scoring after the ball becomes dead, and 8.2.1E and 8.2.2M specify the windows within which base-running errors must be fixed and appeals must be made. This play is within both windows.

B) If they deny the appeal and score the run, they're saying that the initial acquisition was good enough to score, even though it was not a legal touch of the base. But this seems to give it to the offense both ways: passing the base was good enough to score, but touching the base negates the appeal. No rule support for such a ruling.

I think that the reasoning, but not the rules, would be the same for OBR. Doesn't the (now somewhat outdated) J/R have a case like this?

I would not award the run. By retuning to the scene, I would have all the evidence I need to overturn the run. Let's say the runner touched home plate, but he returns to retouch it because someone is giving him bad advice. I would not score the run if the runner, by merely attempting to retouch, has indicated that he has failed to touch home plate. Let those chips fall where they may.

Perhaps the MLBUM is where I saw your authoritative opinion discussed. Someone else may comment on the MLBUM, but I believe you have found most, if not the biggest, of the bugs. BTW, may I use line B the next time someone here thinks they can allow the BR to walk off the field after a run scores before the 3rd out is made, and the BR fails to touch 1B? It sure sounds like what I was trying to say by using analogous situations to rules about the end of a ballgame or inning.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by SE Minnestoa Re

The problem is that the R2 never touched the plate. After the third out was recorded at third, he touched the plate. The plate umpire ruled no run because the third out was recorded prior to him touching the plate.

Did the runner "pass" the plate and not touch it and then after out number 3 came back and touched the plate OR did he not "reach" home plate at all?

if the latter, then there is no appeal play and the PU is correct.

Example: 2 outs and R2

base hit to right. B1 trys to stretch into a double and is tagged out at second BEFORE R2 crosses / "reaches" the plate.

This is obviously a time play but as PU you will signal No Run because the 3rd out occured BEFORE R2 crossed the plate.

Therefore, in order to your anwer your question correctly we need to know whether or not R3 crossed / passed the plate but did not touch it OR he never "reached" it to begin with.

In order to have an appeal play the runner must have passed / reached a base but did not touch it. If he never reaches or passes a base to begin with then there is no appeal.

Pete Booth

[SE Minnestoa Re]

He passed it but did not touch it the first time by

[BigBlu]

The 3rd out ended the inning (2-20-2), therefore I don't think the runner who missed home can correct his baserunning infraction. It seems to me the runner did nothing more than alert the defense to appeal before all the infielders leave the field. If no appeal, the run scores, if the defense properly appeals, the run does not score, even though the runner went back and tried to correct his infraction.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by BigBlu

The 3rd out ended the inning (2-20-2), therefore I don't think the runner who missed home can correct his baserunning infraction.

You didn't read 8.2.2M, did you?

"R1 may legally return to touch home if he has not touched the steps of the dugout...."