Appeal or Out

[BigBlu]

The 3rd out ended the inning (2-20-2), therefore I don't think the runner who missed home can correct his baserunning infraction. It seems to me the runner did nothing more than alert the defense to appeal before all the infielders leave the field. If no appeal, the run scores, if the defense properly appeals, the run does not score, even though the runner went back and tried to correct his infraction.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Interesting case, which might not be as obvious as everyone seems to think. I'm assuming FED rules and that the order of events was as follows and in quick but clear succession:

1. R1 passes HP without touching, thereby acquiring the base subject to appeal.

2. BR put out at 3B for the 3rd out of the inning.

3. R1 returns to HP to rectify his base-running error and touches HP.

If that's what happened, then some umpires would NOT score the run. The rationale would be that, although R1 initially acquired the base prior to the 3rd out and so provisionally scored, he did so illegally and left himself open to appeal. When he returned to touch HP, his touch was legal but occurred after the 3rd out, when no run can score. That touch would thus negate both the possible appeal AND the run. This might have been the PU's reasoning in the OP.

Those who disagree with this interp have 2 unpleasant options if the defense appeals:

A) If they uphold the appeal despite the runner touching HP, then they are ruling that the runner cannot ever rectify his error. No rule support for that: 8.2.1D is a clear case of a runner touching HP and scoring after the ball becomes dead, and 8.2.1E and 8.2.2M specify the windows within which base-running errors must be fixed and appeals must be made. This play is within both windows.

B) If they deny the appeal and score the run, they're saying that the initial acquisition was good enough to score, even though it was not a legal touch of the base. But this seems to give it to the offense both ways: passing the base was good enough to score, but touching the base negates the appeal. No rule support for such a ruling.

I think that the reasoning, but not the rules, would be the same for OBR. Doesn't the (now somewhat outdated) J/R have a case like this?

I would not award the run. By retuning to the scene, I would have all the evidence I need to overturn the run. Let's say the runner touched home plate, but he returns to retouch it because someone is giving him bad advice. I would not score the run if the runner, by merely attempting to retouch, has indicated that he has failed to touch home plate. Let those chips fall where they may.

Perhaps the MLBUM is where I saw your authoritative opinion discussed. Someone else may comment on the MLBUM, but I believe you have found most, if not the biggest, of the bugs. BTW, may I use line B the next time someone here thinks they can allow the BR to walk off the field after a run scores before the 3rd out is made, and the BR fails to touch 1B? It sure sounds like what I was trying to say by using analogous situations to rules about the end of a ballgame or inning.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I thought of that, mbyron but the hangup I have with that interpretation is that I'm not sure what support you have for unscoring a run based upon a runner's action lacking a subsequent appeal.

"Unscoring" a run? Would you call it that on a play where the defense successfully appealed? Certainly action after the play can in general affect whether a run scores.

The rule support is 2-20-1: the inning ended with the 3rd out, and no run can score thereafter.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by BigBlu

The 3rd out ended the inning (2-20-2), therefore I don't think the runner who missed home can correct his baserunning infraction.

You didn't read 8.2.2M, did you?

"R1 may legally return to touch home if he has not touched the steps of the dugout...."

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbyron

"Unscoring" a run? Would you call it that on a play where the defense successfully appealed? Certainly action after the play can in general affect whether a run scores.

Which is why I qualified the statement the way I did.

The rule support is 2-20-1: the inning ended with the 3rd out, and no run can score thereafter.

I fail to see how that would have an effect on what the runner does after the fact. How does a runner touching the plate after the third out change his status from aquiring to the plate to not?

[Rich Ives]

In OBR a runner cannot correct a mistake if a following runner has scored.

7.10(b ) AR 1

Is there a similar rule in FED?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

In OBR a runner cannot correct a mistake if a following runner has scored.

7.10(b ) AR 1

Is there a similar rule in FED?

Yes, but it's not relevant to the situation.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I fail to see how that would have an effect on what the runner does after the fact. How does a runner touching the plate after the third out change his status from acquiring to the plate to not?

R1 passes HP without touching it. He's treated as acquiring it, even though he hasn't touched it, pending an appeal.

When he returns to touch it, the previous acquisition is negated, and the legal touch supersedes it.

Since that happens after the 3rd out in the OP, the run does not score.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

R1 passes HP without touching it. He's treated as acquiring it, even though he hasn't touched it, pending an appeal.

Correct.

When he returns to touch it, the previous acquisition is negated, and the legal touch supersedes it.

Since that happens after the 3rd out in the OP, the run does not score.

A runner cannot return to touch a missed base after the 3rd out. The subsequent touch of the plate is meaningless, and the miss can be successfully appealed.

FED 8.2.2.M is not applicable because the runner is correcting his miss before the 3rd out.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

A runner cannot return to touch a missed base after the 3rd out.

Citation?

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Citation?

MLBUM. It extends 4.09(a) (no run can score after the 3rd out) to include touching a missed base.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Correct.


A runner cannot return to touch a missed base after the 3rd out. The subsequent touch of the plate is meaningless, and the miss can be successfully appealed.

FED 8.2.2.M is not applicable because the runner is correcting his miss before the 3rd out.

The rule book states a runner may not retouch home plate. I'm reading here that the defense must appeal the missed base after a runner illegally retouched a base which he was not supposed to retouch. The penalty for retouching a base you are not allowed to retouch should be to wipe off that run because of a base running infraction, making the following appeal meaningless.

Would the defense get two outs if 1) they appeal the missed base, and then 2) they appeal the illegal retouch of the missed base? I would say the illegal retouch allows the umpire to bypass the appeal process and call the runner out. Don't be afraid to call it.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

MLBUM. It extends 4.09(a) (no run can score after the 3rd out) to include touching a missed base.

Do you have the section number? I can't find it in my older edition...I don't have the 2010.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Do you have the section number? I can't find it in my older edition...I don't have the 2010.

5.4 AR 14. It's at the bottom of page 41 in the 2009 edition.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by SAump

The penalty for retouching a base you are not allowed to retouch should be to wipe off that run because of a base running infraction, making the following appeal meaningless.

That used to be the Wendelstedt interpretation (unscore the run at the time of the retouch because the runner has changed the "time" of the time play). I don't know if it still is.