dropped 3rd strike

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Except by the two players immediately affected by your (non) call.

Sorry. I was a catcher and knew how to tag players when I didn't catch the pitch cleanly on a third strike - swinging or not. I could also see the big umpire standing there with just a turn of my head, as I got up to throw the ball - to third for the K, to the pitcher if men were on base or to first for the put out.

When I batted, I was aware of the D3K. I also could see the umpire, he was wearing the blue shirt four feet from me.

Irrelevant. What they need to know is whether you judged the ball was caught or not caught.

Yes, they will know that by the lack of an out call. Sheesh.

And there are plenty of upper level umpires who use and teach the verbal no-catch mechanic.

I'm sure there are. I also see some upper level umpires who call the fair foul caught by pointing foul and then signalling the out. I see many more who simply make the out call. One book says you should do it while other camps say not to. There are plenty of other examples. In the end, if you are just starting MiLB, follow JE. If not, do what you need to move the game along and get the job done. Please those who matter. I wish you well.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Yes, they will know that by the lack of an out call. Sheesh.

You are correct. Absent an out call, the pitch was obviously not caught. Which means that you are conveying the same information as other umpires who choose to verbalize no-catch. Both mechanics alert the batter and the catcher, among others, to the D3K.

[TussAgee11]

Do you all say "ball" on a pitch 1/4 outside the zone? And if you don't, do you silently call called strikes?

And I guess then there is never a need for signaling safe at any point during the entire game. If you don't call him out, then he is safe! It will be up to the defense to know to look at you during the play to signal such, silently mind you.

If you (or your association) want(s) to be at the top of the profession:

1) If the pitch is snared out of the dirt by the catcher on a swinging strike out, step back to give the catcher room to make his play and signal "Safe" while verbalizing "No catch" or "No" as you would any other catch/no catch decision during a game.

1a) If there is a question as to whether the batter swung, make that call first as you normally would do. If that means going to your partner for an appeal right away, do it. He should be already coming in with his call anyways if you don't jump on a swing right away. The emphasis of your call should be reflective of the closeness of the short hop just as you would do on any play.

2) On a swinging strike three, if the pitch is caught in flight, but close to the dirt by the catcher, give your normal strike 3 swinging mechanic. Its okay if this is a closed fist. Verbalize "catch" or "yes" just loud enough for batter and catcher to hear so as not to show up the batter on a play he may have already given up on. You wouldn't yell "out" on a guy who is out by 15 steps at first, so don't do it here.

2a) If it is a called strike 3 dropped 3rd strike, give your usual called strike 3 mechanic and immediately signal safe. Then verbalize "no catch" if it is not obvious to all the ball has not been caught. *This is where people who use a closed fist "out" mechanic for called strike 3 can get in trouble*

3) If a strike 3 pitch goes to the screen or rebounds far away from the catcher, no need to do anything. Everyone should know what to do on plays that are obvious. You wouldn't signal "no catch" on a routine line drive base hit because you do not have a judgment concerning if a ball was in flight or not when it was controlled by a player. So don't do it here.

3a) If it was a called strike 3, go ahead and give your A+ strike 3 mechanic because everyone is going to wonder how it could be a strike when its rolling around 30 feet from home plate.

All this being said, do what you want. This information is written for people who want to learn and improve their performance. The great thing in life is that you get choices. If you or your association don't agree or want to do otherwise, its your choice.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Do you all say "ball" on a pitch 1/4 outside the zone? And if you don't, do you silently call called strikes?

And I guess then there is never a need for signaling safe at any point during the entire game. If you don't call him out, then he is safe! It will be up to the defense to know to look at you during the play to signal such, silently mind you.

Hyperbole much?

1/4 what? A quarter foot? Sure. A quarter inch? Probably not. Coaches and players have accused me of missing pitches, so I say 'probably'. As for silent called strikes, stop looking silly.

If you (or your association) want(s) to be at the top of the profession:

1) If the pitch is snared out of the dirt by the catcher on a swinging strike out, step back to give the catcher room to make his play and signal "Safe" while verbalizing "No catch" or "No" as you would any other catch/no catch decision during a game.

So, I guess the guys working the CWS and MLB are not at the top of their profession. (sigh)

1a) If there is a question as to whether the batter swung, make that call first as you normally would do. If that means going to your partner for an appeal right away, do it. He should be already coming in with his call anyways if you don't jump on a swing right away. The emphasis of your call should be reflective of the closeness of the short hop just as you would do on any play.

I'm pretty sure that has already been stated.

2) On a swinging strike three, if the pitch is caught in flight, but close to the dirt by the catcher, give your normal strike 3 swinging mechanic. Its okay if this is a closed fist. Verbalize "catch" or "yes" just loud enough for batter and catcher to hear so as not to show up the batter on a play he may have already given up on. You wouldn't yell "out" on a guy who is out by 15 steps at first, so don't do it here.

My raised arm and hammer will tell the players all they need to know. If you feel the need to say those things, go for it. It is ridiculous that some of you think your mechanic is the only one that should be employed. I have repeatedly stated that an umpire should do what the people paying the way want. It is arrogant to pretend that your way is better when many of the best umpires in the world don't use it.

[QUOTE]2a) If it is a called strike 3 dropped 3rd strike, give your usual called strike 3 mechanic and immediately signal safe. Then verbalize "no catch" if it is not obvious to all the ball has not been caught. *This is where people who use a closed fist "out" mechanic for called strike 3 can get in trouble*

Sure thing, coach. I'll let him know that he should run on a D3K. Got it.

My safe signal indicates that the ball was dropped. It is now obvious to all that the ball was not caught.

3) If a strike 3 pitch goes to the screen or rebounds far away from the catcher, no need to do anything. Everyone should know what to do on plays that are obvious. You wouldn't signal "no catch" on a routine line drive base hit because you do not have a judgment concerning if a ball was in flight or not when it was controlled by a player. So don't do it here.

This has already been stated in the thread.

3a) If it was a called strike 3, go ahead and give your A+ strike 3 mechanic because everyone is going to wonder how it could be a strike when its rolling around 30 feet from home plate.

??? I don't believe anyone here has ever written that an umpire should do this.

All this being said, do what you want. This information is written for people who want to learn and improve their performance. The great thing in life is that you get choices. If you or your association don't agree or want to do otherwise, its your choice.

This has already been stated in the thread, numerous times now. My mechanic is not better than anyone else's. It is comfortable and I have never had a problem with it. If you can say the same, ride that pony.

I recall a similar discussion on the 'proper' mechanics for calling foul fly balls that are caught. Some maintained that JE and the best mandate that you should indicate it is foul and then the out. Others contend that the foul call is irrelevant since it is an out. That topic became heated too. I'm sorry this one has since all along I have preached that one should do what gets the job done. Umpiring is tough enough.

[TussAgee11]

So you think ruling by not ruling or signaling on a close catch/no catch on a ball in flight is good umpiring? Would you do that in any other situation ever on the baseball field?

Cause as your partner I'm going to have no idea what the hell is going on or what your decision was. Neither will the players looking at you. How is anyone to know that by not doing anything, you are telling them something. They don't know if you know what you are doing or not. You have a call to make. Make it either way. Just like you are supposed to.

[TussAgee11]

Furthermore Mr. Strybel, I said if YOU or YOUR association want to get to the top of the profession. What people at the top the profession in MLB or anywhere else does not disqualify my statement. I was speaking to those who want to get there. You can't get there anymore if you don't use these accepted advanced mechanics. So twist words around that others write like you normally do, but don't do it to mine.

Secondly, you said I spoke in hyperbole. I feel as though I didn't. The purpose of an umpire or official is to judge action, apply appropriate rules, and convey your decision to participants, officials, and spectators. Hence my comparison.

By not making any signal or voice at any point when it is a close play, you are not serving your purpose as an umpire. Plain and simple.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Furthermore Mr. Strybel, I said if YOU or YOUR association want to get to the top of the profession. What people at the top the profession in MLB or anywhere else does not disqualify my statement. I was speaking to those who want to get there. You can't get there anymore if you don't use these accepted advanced mechanics. So twist words around that others write like you normally do, but don't do it to mine.

Secondly, you said I spoke in hyperbole. I feel as though I didn't. The purpose of an umpire or official is to judge action, apply appropriate rules, and convey your decision to participants, officials, and spectators. Hence my comparison.

By not making any signal or voice at any point when it is a close play, you are not serving your purpose as an umpire. Plain and simple.

Let's face it, rather than looking at the new and accepted ways of doing something he is relying on the way it used to be done and practices accordingly. Hmmm, what's the name that comes to mind ..... oh yeah, Charlie.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

So you think ruling by not ruling or signaling on a close catch/no catch on a ball in flight is good umpiring? Would you do that in any other situation ever on the baseball field?

I suggest Linda McMeniman's from Inquiry to Argument. It will help you argue effectively and with logic. To answer your first question, no. I have already stated that I signal. Please don't pretend I didn't. Your second question is more complex. Yes, there are plenty of calls that aren't signalled. Cans of corn, pick offs without a tag, runners scoring at home on passed balls and the aformentioned foul fly ball that is caught. I hope that helps.

Cause as your partner I'm going to have no idea what the hell is going on or what your decision was.

If you can't see a 6'4", 230# umpire holding his arms out at his shoulders or don't know what that means, you really should consider selling your gear.

Neither will the players looking at you.

I don't work 11U baseball. The players I encounter know what the signal means just fine. So do the players in the pros and those who played in the CWS where that mechanic is used.

How is anyone to know that by not doing anything, you are telling them something. They don't know if you know what you are doing or not. You have a call to make. Make it either way. Just like you are supposed to.

Seriously? Really? Do you verbalize your out calls, even the cans of corn? How will they know it's an out if you don't. You'd better get on the phone with Joe Torre right away. I saw a number of plays at first Wednesday night that simply had the umpire make a casual fist pump for an out, no verbalization. He will need to fix that so everyone will know what happened. Just like you are suppsed to do.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I suggest Linda McMeniman's from Inquiry to Argument. It will help you argue effectively and with logic. To answer your first question, no. I have already stated that I signal. Please don't pretend I didn't. Your second question is more complex. Yes, there are plenty of calls that aren't signalled. Cans of corn, pick offs without a tag, runners scoring at home on passed balls and the aformentioned foul fly ball that is caught. I hope that helps.

And a dropped third strike is not always the same is not a can of corn or a runner scoring at home without a play. It can often be a very close decision.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

If you can't see a 6'4", 230# umpire holding his arms out at his shoulders or don't know what that means, you really should consider selling your gear.

F2 fields out of the dirt and fires to 2nd for a play on R1 who is stealing with 2 outs.

How do I know that you aren't signaling "that's nothing" on a potential interference? You better be coming out of your shoes with a no catch here so everyone knows the status of R1, including me. Otherwise I'm going to watch the play and then look back at you to know what I have to do.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I don't work 11U baseball. The players I encounter know what the signal means just fine. So do the players in the pros and those who played in the CWS where that mechanic is used.

Why should a batter or catcher have to turn their attention away from the action so you can render a decision? On a catch/no catch in the outfield, so you not verbalize either? All runners look at Mr. Strybel now, its his time to shine.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Seriously? Really? Do you verbalize your out calls, even the cans of corn? How will they know it's an out if you don't. You'd better get on the phone with Joe Torre right away. I saw a number of plays at first Wednesday night that simply had the umpire make a casual fist pump for an out, no verbalization. He will need to fix that so everyone will know what happened. Just like you are suppsed to do.

Your favorite past time, twisting up my words. I've asked you not to do it twice now. Seriously. Really.

As I said earlier, a dropped third strike out of the dirt is alot closer than a can of corn or a guy who is out by 15 steps.

At no other point in the entire game do we not verbalize the status of a close play or decision. Not doing it here is playing with fire, plain and simple. By saying "no catch" you aren't telling the runner to run to 1st, you are telling him your decision on whether or not the pitch was caught in flight. He needs to know that so he knows whether or not he can advance to first base or not.