dropped third strike

[wmonroe]

I am a bit confused. Could some one explain the third strike dropped rule. The rule says if less than 2 outs and 1St base not occupied. The ball is live and the batter can advance. Seems like to me this means if there are 2 outs that the batter cannot advance. But, I am being told that just the opposite is so. I am told that with 2 outs it doesn't matter if 1st is occupied or not the ball is live. Where is this defined more clearly. Please advise.

[AlabamaBlue]

Don't know what rules you're working with so I can't give you an exact reference, but you've got it correct. If first base is unoccupied or there are 2 outs, then the batter can run on a dropped 3rd strike.

[wmonroe]

Originally posted by AlabamaBlue
Don't know what rules you're working with so I can't give you an exact reference, but you've got it correct. If first base is unoccupied or there are 2 outs, then the batter can run on a dropped 3rd strike.

ASA rules.... So does this mean if there are 2 outs and 1st is not occupied and the third strike is dropped can the runner advance. I interpret the rule to say the batter is out. If I'm wrong I want to know why. I coach a 12 and under and this happened 3 times to us. We threw the runners out but I did not think it was necessary and neither "blue" was sure

[kellerumps]

If you have 0 or 1 outs then the batter can only run on a dropped 3rd strike IF 1st base is open.

With 2 outs it does not matter, the batter can run on a dropped 3rd.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by AlabamaBlue
If first base is unoccupied or there are 2 outs, then the batter can run on a dropped 3rd strike.

As said, if 1st is unoccupied the batter can run OR if there are 2 outs, the batter can run regardless of whether 1st is unoccupied.

The rest of the rule wmonroe quoted (ASA 8-1-b-1) says:
", or
2. There are two outs and first base is occupied"
(ASA 8-1-b-2)

Originally posted by wmonroe
ASA rules.... So does this mean if there are 2 outs and 1st is not occupied and the third strike is dropped can the runner advance. I interpret the rule to say the batter is out. ... snip ...

Yes, with 2 outs, batter can run regardless of 1st base occupied or not and is not automatically out.

Originally posted by wmonroe
ASA rules.... ... snip ... If I'm wrong I want to know why. I coach a 12 and under and this happened 3 times to us. We threw the runners out but I did not think it was necessary ... snip ...

Because the batter becomes a batter-runner (can run) on a dropped third strike anytime except with less than 2 outs and 1st base occupied.

Originally posted by wmonroe
ASA rules.... ... snip ... neither "blue" was sure

Don't know what they weren't sure about, but probably just new, tell them "batter becomes a batter-runner (can run) on a dropped third strike anytime except with less than 2 outs and 1st base occupied" if you can.

[WestMichiganBlue]

When you understand what is behind the rule, then it is easier to understand it's application.

First - contrary to popular opinion, a batter is not out on a third strike - they must be put out. The easiest way is for the catcher to catch the ball in flight. Then the batter is out an instant after the 3rd strike. In flight means directly from the pitcher to the catcher; that low pitch in the dirt that the catcher short-hops cleanly is NOT in-flight. So - if the ball touches the ground, or the catcher drops the ball, or misses it totally the batter has not been put out (though she now has 3 strikes on her).

There are other options to put her out. Tag her with the ball, tag 1B with the ball, or she leaves the field of play (goes through the fence).

When that the batter is running, she is forcing a runner already on 1B to second. That would give the defense an unfair advantage to get two outs (throw to 2B, relay to 1B) when they only deserved one out (the strike-out). (Imagine that the bases are loaded, runners not running, catcher deliberately drops 3rd strike, steps on home, throws to 3B, relay to 2B. 3 outs!)

So, if a runner is on 1B, the batter is automatically out on the 3rd strike - caught or un-caught - so that the runner is not forced to advance.

Finally, if you already have two outs, the defense can not get a double play, so then they still have to put out the batter.

Hope that helps.

BTW - many umpires (too many!) will call a batter out on a dropped third strike when she walks away from home, claiming that she gave up. Absolutely wrong. Until she goes through that opening in the fence she can "wake up" and sprint to 1B. Teach your catchers to tag that batter where ever she is, or hold on to the ball until the batter leaves the field.

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichiganBlue
When you understand what is behind the rule, then it is easier to understand it's application.

First - contrary to popular opinion, a batter is not out on a third strike - they must be put out. The easiest way is for the catcher to catch the ball in flight. Then the batter is out an instant after the 3rd strike. In flight means directly from the pitcher to the catcher; that low pitch in the dirt that the catcher short-hops cleanly is NOT in-flight. So - if the ball touches the ground, or the catcher drops the ball, or misses it totally the batter has not been put out (though she now has 3 strikes on her).

There are other options to put her out. Tag her with the ball, tag 1B with the ball, or she leaves the field of play (goes through the fence).

When that the batter is running, she is forcing a runner already on 1B to second. That would give the defense an unfair advantage to get two outs (throw to 2B, relay to 1B) when they only deserved one out (the strike-out). (Imagine that the bases are loaded, runners not running, catcher deliberately drops 3rd strike, steps on home, throws to 3B, relay to 2B. 3 outs!)

So, if a runner is on 1B, the batter is automatically out on the 3rd strike - caught or un-caught - so that the runner is not forced to advance.

Finally, if you already have two outs, the defense can not get a double play, so then they still have to put out the batter.

Hope that helps.

BTW - many umpires (too many!) will call a batter out on a dropped third strike when she walks away from home, claiming that she gave up. Absolutely wrong. Until she goes through that opening in the fence she can "wake up" and sprint to 1B. Teach your catchers to tag that batter where ever she is, or hold on to the ball until the batter leaves the field.

WMB

WMB,

Well done. I'd just like to note one thing. With two outs, the defense can also put out a runner forced to advance by the BRs attempted advance to 1B. For example, bases loaded, two outs and the catcher drops a third strike. The defense can simply pick up the ball and step on the plate or tag the runner from third for the final out. This applies at all bases forced, not just home.

Thanks,

[greymule]

Also remember that a ball that hits the ground before the catcher secures it is not considered caught. I've seen the catcher and the rest of the defense start off the field after a trapped third strike, while the smart runner makes his way legally to 1B.

And a smart runner will do just as WMB described: hang around the batter's box or, if his dugout is on the 1B side, amble toward the bench and then sprint to 1B at the opportune moment.

[WestMichiganBlue]

Hey Greymule - I had a LL Senior League team win a district championship with just that play about 20 years ago.

"if his dugout is on the 1B side, amble toward the bench and then sprint to 1B at the opportune moment."

Late innings, tie ball game, 3rd strike in the dirt, my batter starts walking towards visitors dugout. Catcher glances at him and fires ball to F5, etc. as they all start closing on the pitcher. Without any coaching, my batter sprinted the last 20 feet to 1B and camped. Man, you should have heard the screaming from the other side. But the umpire knew the rule, and my runner staid put. Eventually scored the winning run.

WMB

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by WestMichiganBlue
When you understand what is behind the rule, then it is easier to understand it's application.

Absolutely agree! And this is not the only rule that became much easier after I understood the reasoning. Let's try to do more of this.

[stripes.ref]

Thanks for the great explanations on dropped third strikes. One question comes to mind as I read this -- is the interpretation / application the same in both National Federation and ASA rules?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by stripes.ref
Thanks for the great explanations on dropped third strikes. One question comes to mind as I read this -- is the interpretation / application the same in both National Federation and ASA rules?

Yes.

[stripes.ref]

Thanks!