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Old Thu Sep 22, 2011, 09:52pm
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dropped 3rd strike

Had this happen in a game last week wanted to run it by here.

NCAA fall ball, I'm BU (2-man), R2, two outs, 1-2 count. Pitch is low, catcher turns glove to catch/block, ball short hops (from my angle), batter half swings.

PU doesn't give a "Yes he did" or a "swing" with a point, just give a lazy hammer in the background with no verbal mechanic.

Offensive dugouts starts yelling run run run, for dropped 3rd strike, Catcher rolls ball back to mound.

Chaos for 10 seconds, B/R standing on first, R2 nevers moves, infielders starting to clear the field.

At this point I was confused as to what my partner was calling, I had swing and dropped 3rd. We call "TIME" just to stop anything if theres anything

We get together, he says he has a swing, I ask if he saw the ball hit the dirt, he responds that he did not see if it did or not, he was unsure. I tell him that I saw it short hop the mitt. I then asked if he said anything such as "out" or "catch", he responds no.

So we treated it as a live ball dropped 3rd, kept runners where they were and played on.

Correct? Suggestions for the future to remedy this other then better plate mechanics with a 2-part swing/catch/no-catch mechanic

I felt as the BU I could not offer anything right away such as the open/closed hand. I feel as though that is saying that I have a "swing" on the half-swing and if they came to me I have to say that he went, especically if anyone on the coaching staff are in tune with those mechanics.
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 06:47am
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You and your partner's decision definitely put the defense at a tremedous disadvantage.

The catcher caught the short hop, 3rd strike, no problem, right? The lack of a call or ruling allowed the BR to reach 1st base. And you left it like that?

And then you and your partner got together and left it like that?

Fix it.
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 07:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etn_ump View Post
You and your partner's decision definitely put the defense at a tremedous disadvantage.

The catcher caught the short hop, 3rd strike, no problem, right? The lack of a call or ruling allowed the BR to reach 1st base. And you left it like that?

And then you and your partner got together and left it like that?

Fix it.
Fix it? How are you suggesting one might do that? How do you unring the bell in this situation?

Catcher knew it was strike three, because he rolled the ball back to the mound. Catcher should have also known he caught it on a short hop and therefore wasn't a caught third strike.

Sure, the plate umpire could have been more definitive with a verbal call. But this is a DMC and continuing on with the half-inning is absolutely the right thing to do.
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 07:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etn_ump View Post
You and your partner's decision definitely put the defense at a tremedous disadvantage.

The catcher caught the short hop, 3rd strike, no problem, right? The lack of a call or ruling allowed the BR to reach 1st base. And you left it like that?

And then you and your partner got together and left it like that?

Fix it.
I don't think there's anything here that can be fixed except learning the proper mechanics on a D3K and check swing situation. Sure, the defense was left at a disadvantage by the improper mechanics, but their catcher was responsible to know the situation too. And this catcher was just as guilty for allowing the BR to reach first base as Josh Paul was on the "Doug Eddings" play in 2005.

Tim.
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 07:35am
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Originally Posted by eagle_12 View Post
I felt as the BU I could not offer anything right away such as the open/closed hand. I feel as though that is saying that I have a "swing" on the half-swing and if they came to me I have to say that he went, especically if anyone on the coaching staff are in tune with those mechanics.
but, you did have a swing. Indicate the pitch wasn't caught, and hope your partner learns better mechanics.
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 09:06am
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So....., you leave the BR on first and they score 3 runs or whatever.

Due to the plate ump's failure to say 2 words, "no catch", you end up with a **^#storm.

Get together, call the BR out and then be prepared to explain yourself to the offensive coach.

Also, this is NCAA fall ball. I bet the catcher either thought he caught the ball or he did catch it. The plate ump's failure to say anything confirmed his belief that he caught it.
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 09:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etn_ump View Post
So....., you leave the BR on first and they score 3 runs or whatever.

Due to the plate ump's failure to say 2 words, "no catch", you end up with a **^#storm.

Get together, call the BR out and then be prepared to explain yourself to the offensive coach.

Also, this is NCAA fall ball. I bet the catcher either thought he caught the ball or he did catch it. The plate ump's failure to say anything confirmed his belief that he caught it.
So you are going to make an out call based on what rule? Cant be on a clean catch by the catcher because neither of you had this. I suggest you (if they ask) advise the catcher and or coach that they are required to know the situation they are in. By the way I cant recall the last time a borderline ball to the catcher in this situation didnt either end up with the catcher throwing to first or turning to me as PU and showing me the ball in the glove to try and convince me he caught it clean. If I am showing the no catch sign then he will then throw it to first.
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 10:09am
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by umpjong View Post
.... By the way I cant recall the last time a borderline ball to the catcher in this situation didnt either end up with the catcher throwing to first or turning ....
October 12, 2005.

JM
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 11:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etn_ump View Post
So....., you leave the BR on first and they score 3 runs or whatever.

Due to the plate ump's failure to say 2 words, "no catch", you end up with a **^#storm.

Get together, call the BR out and then be prepared to explain yourself to the offensive coach.

Also, this is NCAA fall ball. I bet the catcher either thought he caught the ball or he did catch it. The plate ump's failure to say anything confirmed his belief that he caught it.
Why/how could you call the BR out? There was no reversal of a decision that placed a team in jeapardy. The defensive team chose to ignore the situation and the PU made the situation worse with poor mechanics. That's on them moreso than it is on you and your partner.

You're right. Either way, there's gonna be a $hit$storm. It's always better to weather that storm knowing it was called by the book and not with some makebelieve rules.
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 11:34am
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Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) View Post
October 12, 2005.

JM
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 12:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etn_ump View Post
You and your partner's decision definitely put the defense at a tremedous disadvantage.

The catcher caught the short hop, 3rd strike, no problem, right? The lack of a call or ruling allowed the BR to reach 1st base. And you left it like that?

And then you and your partner got together and left it like that?

Fix it.
Oof. Great way to make a bad situation worse.

I'd say it was the lack of a throw that allowed the BR to reach 1B.

No rule basis to unring this bell IMO. Endure the rump-chewing from the defensive coach, and play on. Amazing that six years after Eddings, we still have trouble with this.
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 01:09pm
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Any well coached F2 will apply a tag on the BR when there is a borderline catch/no catch. Regardless of how the umpires handled it, the players are responsible for knowing the situation.
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 02:07pm
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Bad mechanics is not the same as correcting an incorrect call. The rule in the book that tells us to "fix" things applies to correcting incorrect calls - and has NOTHING to do with mechanics. If an umpire forgets to put his arm up for obstruction, it's still obstruction and we still rule accordingly. This whole situation is simply DMC. Play on.
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Old Fri Sep 23, 2011, 05:28pm
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Here is a perfect example of poor training. How many times have we stated with an anything & 2 count, any attempt by the batter needs to be clarified for the benefit of both teams. Either the PU comes up immediatly and says, "YES, he went" or he must go to the BU without being asked. In the advanced technique, the BU will come up with his decision without being asked by the PU.

Okay, so much for the swing part of this mess. As far as the D3K, if you as the BU see the pitch is not cleanly caught and there is a chance that the batter can become a runner, the BU should wait a moment for the PU. If the PU does not respond with a "no catch", the BU should be coming up with this with verbal ("No catch!") and the safe signal.

Lastly, if a situation like this happens again, you don't call TIME. If the defense leaves the field and there are runners on base, the umpires remain in position with their eyes on the runners. The offense has a possibility of gaining extra bases due to the indifference of the defense. Of course, you will be in a $hit storm and ejecting someone because your lack of being verbal about the swing or no catch caused the whole problem to start with.
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Old Sat Sep 24, 2011, 01:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 View Post
Any well coached F2 will apply a tag on the BR when there is a borderline catch/no catch. Regardless of how the umpires handled it, the players are responsible for knowing the situation.
And to know this situation the umpire(s) have to indicate what it is.
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