dropped 3rd strike

[BigUmp56]

I think I'm with Mike on this one, as I use the same mechanic he does. I call the pitch, and then step back and away to my right while giving the safe signal, without a verbal. My take is that the batter now knows I called the third strike on the half swing, and it's up to him to take off for first or not. I'm not going to alert him to it.

Tim.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by Kaliix

So I am following this thread and want to confirm that for this situation [half swing, possible strike three with the possibility a dropped 3rd strike] you would 1)signal strike (I would point as a hammer indicates an out) while at the same time verbalizing strike, 2) followed by a safe sign, no verbalization?

Is that right?

I typically will say "Yes, he did." or "Swing" while signalling with a point towards the plate. The whole field will know it is a strike call. On an uncaught pitch, I typically take a step away from the action (especially if the ball gets away) and signal safe. I'm 6'4" and 230# so I am easily seen by players and coaches alike. As stated a couple times prior, the pitcher and infield always react to a D3K situation at the levels of ball I umpire. The catchers know when they catch the ball too. Since I work hard to track the pitch to the mitt, I don't have problems selling this call. If I am up and looking at the play, they will know what to do. You can see this same mechanic used in by CWS and many MLB umpires. If it is good enough for them, I think I am pretty safe using it. The guy who taught me to say "Ball down." on trouble plays worked a couple CWS. He also uses the mechanic I just wrote about. Above 12U, it works just fine. Lower level players may need the prompting though.

If the pitch is caught on a swinging strike three, I use a 'gentle' hammer - fist closed and a short sweep down while saying "Out" just loud enough for the catcher and batter to hear. There's no need to embarrass the batter with more than that.

I love the quote. A buddy of mine always closes his clinics by saying, I am primed to umpire after 20 years of marriage. I know nothing and am yelled at for everything.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by Kaliix

So I am following this thread and want to confirm that for this situation [half swing, possible strike three with the possibility a dropped 3rd strike] you would 1)signal strike (I would point as a hammer indicates an out) while at the same time verbalizing strike, 2) followed by a safe sign, no verbalization?

Is that right?

Kaliix,

Almost, not quite.

1. On a "checked swing" that I, as PU, judge a strike, I usually say, "Yes, he did!" and point the strike. (I don't use a hammer either, same reason as you.)

2. If the catcher did not legally catch the pitch I verbalize "NO catch!", accompanied by the safe sign, as is currently taught in all credible umpire schools, just as it states in the Evans manual quote I posted from earlier in this thread.

JM

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Kaliix,

Almost, not quite.

1. On a "checked swing" that I, as PU, judge a strike, I usually say, "Yes, he did!" and point the strike. (I don't use a hammer either, same reason as you.)

2. If the catcher did not legally catch the pitch I verbalize "NO catch!", accompanied by the safe sign, as is currently taught in all credible umpire schools, just as it states in the Evans manual quote I posted from earlier in this thread.

JM

What I do, but the verbal in point 2 is only if there's any question. If the ball is at the backstop, then there's no need for this part of the mechanic.

[BigUmp56]

I have a question for those that alert the batter with a verbal on a D3K.

What's the difference between us becoming the 10th man on defense and alerting a team that they have an appeal situation (which we endeavor to not do by giving a safe signal when a BR misses 1st base), and us becoming the 10th man on offense by alerting them that the catcher didn't field the ball cleanly?

Is it simply because you feel that we're the only ones on the field that know the ball was or was not fielded cleanly, or is it more that regardless of what anyone else thinks we're the only ones that make that judgment on a close call?

Tim.

[UmpJM]

Good point, Bob.

I honestly don't understand the aversion or reluctance to verbalize (for the benefit of the F2 & BR) one's judgment that the pitch was not caught.

The catcher may "know" that he caught the pitch, as Josh Paul apparently did, but the only thing that matters is whether you judged he did.

In my experience, which "tops out" at JUCO/D-III, verbally communicating tends to eliminate goat rodeos, and I don't especially like goat rodeos in the games I do. I would guess Doug Eddings feels the same way - now.

As Mike S. says, it's your game and you get to live with the consequences, so do as you think best.

JM

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I did not misunderstand you. Others took issues with what you wrote as well.

others didn't make smart@$$ inferences like, "If you prefer calling "Strike three, batter out." go for it. Do you also alert the batter to a walk by saying, "Ball four, take your base."?"

I lived in Texas for a few years and worked baseball. I never saw umpires do what you suggest they should. Then again, they weren't working lower level ball.

Wow, you're thick. Did I say they did? Did I say I did? Good god.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

On an uncaught pitch, I typically take a step away from the action (especially if the ball gets away) and signal safe. I'm 6'4" and 230# so I am easily seen by players and coaches alike.

Except by the two players immediately affected by your (non) call.

The catchers know when they catch the ball too.

Irrelevant. What they need to know is whether you judged the ball was caught or not caught.

And there are plenty of upper level umpires who use and teach the verbal no-catch mechanic.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I have a question for those that alert the batter with a verbal on a D3K.

What's the difference between us becoming the 10th man on defense and alerting a team that they have an appeal situation (which we endeavor to not do by giving a safe signal when a BR misses 1st base), and us becoming the 10th man on offense by alerting them that the catcher didn't field the ball cleanly?

Big difference. A call is warranted when and if an appeal is made, not when the missed base occurs. No appeal - no call. A catch/no catch call is always warranted (if it isn't obvious) when the event occurs.

Is it simply because you feel that we're the only ones on the field that know the ball was or was not fielded cleanly, or is it more that regardless of what anyone else thinks we're the only ones that make that judgment on a close call?

It is because there are players on the field who might not know the result of an important judgment call and they are entitled to receive that information - from the umpire. I don't think it should be a secret.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

others didn't make smart@$$ inferences like, "If you prefer calling "Strike three, batter out." go for it. Do you also alert the batter to a walk by saying, "Ball four, take your base."?"

Wow, you're thick. Did I say they did? Did I say I did? Good god.

Really. You said you like to call the out. Good for you. Others asked why you do that. After reading your smarta$$ comments on this forum, one would think you'd know better than to display thin skin.

Some seem to think that it is acceptable to alert the batter to a D3K. JE may teach it but plenty of the best umpires in the world ignore that advice and call it like I do. If your assignor/partner(s), league. association, team wants you to do it, go for it. I provided an example of a batter walking away after a hard swing, disgusted at the miss he is a step out of the box when you say, "No catch." The ball is on it's way to the backstop, the runner on third is coming home and the batter realizes he has another life, thanks to you. The run scores and he is safe. The defensive coach is now a foot from your face wanting to know why you prompted him. Be sure to have the JE book there to show him.

Meanwhile, on my field, the same thing happens and I have an out once Junior strides away from the dish. I don't feel the need to coach. The offensive coach will be pissed - at his player, for forgetting what to do.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Except by the two players immediately affected by your (non) call.

Sorry. I was a catcher and knew how to tag players when I didn't catch the pitch cleanly on a third strike - swinging or not. I could also see the big umpire standing there with just a turn of my head, as I got up to throw the ball - to third for the K, to the pitcher if men were on base or to first for the put out.

When I batted, I was aware of the D3K. I also could see the umpire, he was wearing the blue shirt four feet from me.

Irrelevant. What they need to know is whether you judged the ball was caught or not caught.

Yes, they will know that by the lack of an out call. Sheesh.

And there are plenty of upper level umpires who use and teach the verbal no-catch mechanic.

I'm sure there are. I also see some upper level umpires who call the fair foul caught by pointing foul and then signalling the out. I see many more who simply make the out call. One book says you should do it while other camps say not to. There are plenty of other examples. In the end, if you are just starting MiLB, follow JE. If not, do what you need to move the game along and get the job done. Please those who matter. I wish you well.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Yes, they will know that by the lack of an out call. Sheesh.

You are correct. Absent an out call, the pitch was obviously not caught. Which means that you are conveying the same information as other umpires who choose to verbalize no-catch. Both mechanics alert the batter and the catcher, among others, to the D3K.

[TussAgee11]

Do you all say "ball" on a pitch 1/4 outside the zone? And if you don't, do you silently call called strikes?

And I guess then there is never a need for signaling safe at any point during the entire game. If you don't call him out, then he is safe! It will be up to the defense to know to look at you during the play to signal such, silently mind you.

If you (or your association) want(s) to be at the top of the profession:

1) If the pitch is snared out of the dirt by the catcher on a swinging strike out, step back to give the catcher room to make his play and signal "Safe" while verbalizing "No catch" or "No" as you would any other catch/no catch decision during a game.

1a) If there is a question as to whether the batter swung, make that call first as you normally would do. If that means going to your partner for an appeal right away, do it. He should be already coming in with his call anyways if you don't jump on a swing right away. The emphasis of your call should be reflective of the closeness of the short hop just as you would do on any play.

2) On a swinging strike three, if the pitch is caught in flight, but close to the dirt by the catcher, give your normal strike 3 swinging mechanic. Its okay if this is a closed fist. Verbalize "catch" or "yes" just loud enough for batter and catcher to hear so as not to show up the batter on a play he may have already given up on. You wouldn't yell "out" on a guy who is out by 15 steps at first, so don't do it here.

2a) If it is a called strike 3 dropped 3rd strike, give your usual called strike 3 mechanic and immediately signal safe. Then verbalize "no catch" if it is not obvious to all the ball has not been caught. *This is where people who use a closed fist "out" mechanic for called strike 3 can get in trouble*

3) If a strike 3 pitch goes to the screen or rebounds far away from the catcher, no need to do anything. Everyone should know what to do on plays that are obvious. You wouldn't signal "no catch" on a routine line drive base hit because you do not have a judgment concerning if a ball was in flight or not when it was controlled by a player. So don't do it here.

3a) If it was a called strike 3, go ahead and give your A+ strike 3 mechanic because everyone is going to wonder how it could be a strike when its rolling around 30 feet from home plate.

All this being said, do what you want. This information is written for people who want to learn and improve their performance. The great thing in life is that you get choices. If you or your association don't agree or want to do otherwise, its your choice.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Do you all say "ball" on a pitch 1/4 outside the zone? And if you don't, do you silently call called strikes?

And I guess then there is never a need for signaling safe at any point during the entire game. If you don't call him out, then he is safe! It will be up to the defense to know to look at you during the play to signal such, silently mind you.

Hyperbole much?

1/4 what? A quarter foot? Sure. A quarter inch? Probably not. Coaches and players have accused me of missing pitches, so I say 'probably'. As for silent called strikes, stop looking silly.

If you (or your association) want(s) to be at the top of the profession:

1) If the pitch is snared out of the dirt by the catcher on a swinging strike out, step back to give the catcher room to make his play and signal "Safe" while verbalizing "No catch" or "No" as you would any other catch/no catch decision during a game.

So, I guess the guys working the CWS and MLB are not at the top of their profession. (sigh)

1a) If there is a question as to whether the batter swung, make that call first as you normally would do. If that means going to your partner for an appeal right away, do it. He should be already coming in with his call anyways if you don't jump on a swing right away. The emphasis of your call should be reflective of the closeness of the short hop just as you would do on any play.

I'm pretty sure that has already been stated.

2) On a swinging strike three, if the pitch is caught in flight, but close to the dirt by the catcher, give your normal strike 3 swinging mechanic. Its okay if this is a closed fist. Verbalize "catch" or "yes" just loud enough for batter and catcher to hear so as not to show up the batter on a play he may have already given up on. You wouldn't yell "out" on a guy who is out by 15 steps at first, so don't do it here.

My raised arm and hammer will tell the players all they need to know. If you feel the need to say those things, go for it. It is ridiculous that some of you think your mechanic is the only one that should be employed. I have repeatedly stated that an umpire should do what the people paying the way want. It is arrogant to pretend that your way is better when many of the best umpires in the world don't use it.

[QUOTE]2a) If it is a called strike 3 dropped 3rd strike, give your usual called strike 3 mechanic and immediately signal safe. Then verbalize "no catch" if it is not obvious to all the ball has not been caught. *This is where people who use a closed fist "out" mechanic for called strike 3 can get in trouble*

Sure thing, coach. I'll let him know that he should run on a D3K. Got it.

My safe signal indicates that the ball was dropped. It is now obvious to all that the ball was not caught.

3) If a strike 3 pitch goes to the screen or rebounds far away from the catcher, no need to do anything. Everyone should know what to do on plays that are obvious. You wouldn't signal "no catch" on a routine line drive base hit because you do not have a judgment concerning if a ball was in flight or not when it was controlled by a player. So don't do it here.

This has already been stated in the thread.

3a) If it was a called strike 3, go ahead and give your A+ strike 3 mechanic because everyone is going to wonder how it could be a strike when its rolling around 30 feet from home plate.

??? I don't believe anyone here has ever written that an umpire should do this.

All this being said, do what you want. This information is written for people who want to learn and improve their performance. The great thing in life is that you get choices. If you or your association don't agree or want to do otherwise, its your choice.

This has already been stated in the thread, numerous times now. My mechanic is not better than anyone else's. It is comfortable and I have never had a problem with it. If you can say the same, ride that pony.

I recall a similar discussion on the 'proper' mechanics for calling foul fly balls that are caught. Some maintained that JE and the best mandate that you should indicate it is foul and then the out. Others contend that the foul call is irrelevant since it is an out. That topic became heated too. I'm sorry this one has since all along I have preached that one should do what gets the job done. Umpiring is tough enough.

[TussAgee11]

So you think ruling by not ruling or signaling on a close catch/no catch on a ball in flight is good umpiring? Would you do that in any other situation ever on the baseball field?

Cause as your partner I'm going to have no idea what the hell is going on or what your decision was. Neither will the players looking at you. How is anyone to know that by not doing anything, you are telling them something. They don't know if you know what you are doing or not. You have a call to make. Make it either way. Just like you are supposed to.