Home plate appeal costs HS Conn team Championship.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

1) I looked at the photos from the game - four different sites. All show a 3 man crew. If there is a fourth, he isn't listed on a box score or shown in the photos.

Go to the video linked in the first post in this thread. At 0:49 and for a few seconds after that, you can see all four at the same time. It's right as the PU finishes his demonstration.

[MikeStrybel]

I find a few of the responses pretty funny. Like our crews here in Illinois, the Connecticut crew that worked this game usually works the two man system during the regular season. Was the PU out of textbook position? Yes. Was he in position to see the call that he had to make? Yes. There is no perfect position for baseball umpiring. Also, tossing the head coach for being animated in that situation is asinine. The assistant coach gets less rope though and may have earned a trip home. As for the term 'drift', it means to be out of position by virtue of habit. The PU drifted away from his proper position and it may have been as a result of not working enough 4 man games (who does?). If you are always in the proper position for every call and every play, good for you.

In response to a the query about getting the call right, if you don't know why I mentioned what get the call right means to MLB umpires, that's a shame. The very best umpires in the world know that umpiring is all about getting the call right, not about looking good doing it. They would rather institute instant replay in order to ensure this than pretend that their positioning is good enough.

Bob understood my post just fine. In response to Rich, I provided an anecdote about backing players off the plate. I know Rich to be a good umpire and was merely relating how our best intentions can injure the game. I asked Dave if he could cite a rule that allowed umpires to prevent players from taking the field during a dead ball. I know there is none. So does Bob.

RichMSN, I like the response...I still hold up a hand on big HRs and know better. I like to stand just in front of the plate, to watch the touch and then give the catcher the ball before I dust off the dish. Being there makes my every movement and advice visible.

DaveReed, I saw the fourth umpire. Thank you for pointing that out. I have searched for the box scores and see no umpires listed. The first base umpire was actually doing his job by rodeo clowning people away.

zm283, sorry but we disagree. I provided a specific example of where it can bite you in the a-- and the coach was right. If you tell players to stay back, it may be for your good but it is also preventing an infraction from occuring. You just gave one team an advantage. I related the story (in another thread - just so you can follow along) of how, long ago, I would subtly point at a base when a runner touched it, especially home. I had seen some college partners do it and picked up the (bad) habit. A coach realized what I was doing and caught me when I saw a guy miss one. He immediately appealed and then had the balls to tell me that I told him that the runner missed by my actions. Never again.

I'm sorry for doing what happens in almost every thread here. I added a dimension to the original play and it caused some confusion. It wasn't a big deal. I asked for clarification on something that was written. I could have written the typical, "Try again." or "Be gone fan boy." but I wanted to see if Dave or Rich would admit that no rule allows us to keep players off the field during a dead ball celebration. My attempt to remind the board that interjecting in that situation was more wrong than being out of proper position on the missed touch at home. Well, not really...he got the call right.

[Rich]

There's something alluded to that hasn't gotten enough play here. The missed plate belonged to U1, not the plate guy. The PU should've gone straight to third as soon as U3 went outcand U1 should've rotated down.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

There's something alluded to that hasn't gotten enough play here. The missed plate belonged to U1, not the plate guy. The PU should've gone straight to third as soon as U3 went outcand U1 should've rotated down.

Heh. Good catch!

[JJ]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

There's something alluded to that hasn't gotten enough play here. The missed plate belonged to U1, not the plate guy. The PU should've gone straight to third as soon as U3 went outcand U1 should've rotated down.

Hmmm...where were the runners before the ball was hit? The PU doesn't rotate to third on a base hit in EVERY situation....if there was a runner on second he stays home...

JJ

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JJ

Hmmm...where were the runners before the ball was hit? The PU doesn't rotate to third on a base hit in EVERY situation....if there was a runner on second he stays home...

JJ

R1 only. It said so in the article and the timing of the video makes this pretty obvious.

There's no way I alter the rotations in this situation, either. It's just as likely there's a big call at third and I'd rather stay on the same page we were on the entire game.

(The only exception I could see is if it was a 3-2 count with 2 outs we might treat that runner if he was an R2 and slide. The timing just doesn't support that, though.)

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

R1 only. It said so in the article and the timing of the video makes this pretty obvious.

There's no way I alter the rotations in this situation, either. It's just as likely there's a big call at third and I'd rather stay on the same page we were on the entire game.

(The only exception I could see is if it was a 3-2 count with 2 outs we might treat that runner if he was an R2 and slide. The timing just doesn't support that, though.)

Have you ever seen / heard of crews, perhaps some with some familiarity with each other, altering some rotations late in games and with winning runs involved?

Just curious,

[Rich]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Have you ever seen / heard of crews, perhaps some with some familiarity with each other, altering some rotations late in games and with winning runs involved?

Just curious,

It's a poor choice, IMO. Why keep the plate umpire at home? It's almost like saying that U1 isn't as capable of making a call at the plate when he's going to get to the point of the plate easily and make the call the exact same way the plate guy did.

I'm willing to bet that the reason that the PU was where he was is because he felt he had to get to third and then changed his mind. I mean, I don't see U2 sliding to third in the video.

I work a lot of 4-man games over the course of a season with some guys that I regularly work with -- I know we're not altering this rotation.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

There's something alluded to that hasn't gotten enough play here. The missed plate belonged to U1, not the plate guy. The PU should've gone straight to third as soon as U3 went outcand U1 should've rotated down.

Yes Rich that is possible but its hard to really tell where the runners were and outs, was runner going, etc. Winning run, I could see leaving the plate guy at home and just sliding or pushing on a clean double. I'm not going to kill the crew for that, but its certainly worth a discussion about end of game rotations / slides in both 3 and 4 man. Nice catch.

[David B]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Yes Rich that is possible but its hard to really tell where the runners were and outs, was runner going, etc. Winning run, I could see leaving the plate guy at home and just sliding or pushing on a clean double. I'm not going to kill the crew for that, but its certainly worth a discussion about end of game rotations / slides in both 3 and 4 man. Nice catch.

Rotation is rotation. You're not going to change that simply because its the end of the game. There is no way communicate that with your fellow officials. But a very good point by Rich. I edited to add since i just saw your other post asking that question.
In all of our playoff games etc, we want the guys going out to cover the fly ball/ catch etc., on every possible situation.

But, I've never heard of changing anything simply because its the end of the game. If anything, I'm wanting F3 to make sure he goes out on a possible play etc.,


Thanks
David

[David B]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

but I wanted to see if Dave or Rich would admit that no rule allows us to keep players off the field during a dead ball celebration. My attempt to remind the board that interjecting in that situation was more wrong than being out of proper position on the missed touch at home. Well, not really...he got the call right.

As others have stated, this was not a dead ball situation. There is no rule that keeps players off the field, (in a dead ball situation), but if I am PU, I have lots of authority to make sure the plate area stays clean.

Also, at least in our state, we have mandated to watch the players around the plate because there have been so many instances where this has been interpreted as taunting. I know several times a season, I have to warn someone to cool it during their HR celebrations.

Thanks
David

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

As for the term 'drift', it means to be out of position by virtue of habit. The PU drifted away from his proper position and it may have been as a result of not working enough 4 man games (who does?). If you are always in the proper position for every call and every play, good for you.

You used the term "drift" in a way that sounded like it was a proper mechanic. You said something to the effect of "The PU will drift up the line for a look at third".

zm283, sorry but we disagree. I provided a specific example of where it can bite you in the a-- and the coach was right. If you tell players to stay back, it may be for your good but it is also preventing an infraction from occuring. You just gave one team an advantage. I related the story (in another thread - just so you can follow along) of how, long ago, I would subtly point at a base when a runner touched it, especially home. I had seen some college partners do it and picked up the (bad) habit. A coach realized what I was doing and caught me when I saw a guy miss one. He immediately appealed and then had the balls to tell me that I told him that the runner missed by my actions. Never again.

No, your example has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Even during a dead ball, there is no advantage gained by keeping players away from the plate so you can see if it is touched or not. I ask again: How exactly does keeping teammates away from home plate prevent an infraction from happening? All it does is ensure I can see the touch, nothing else. Furthermore, pointing at a base is a different animal and completely off the subject. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand. If a coach wants to get upset about me keeping players away from the plate, he had better get over it pretty quickly.

If there was such an advantage gained from keeping players away from the plate, the NCAA wouldn't put it in their rule book. FED needs to follow suit.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by zm1283

You used the term "drift" in a way that sounded like it was a proper mechanic. You said something to the effect of "The PU will drift up the line for a look at third".

No, I would have used the term 'rotate' as I normally do when discussing proper mechanics.

No, your example has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Even during a dead ball, there is no advantage gained by keeping players away from the plate so you can see if it is touched or not. I ask again: How exactly does keeping teammates away from home plate prevent an infraction from happening? All it does is ensure I can see the touch, nothing else. Furthermore, pointing at a base is a different animal and completely off the subject. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand. If a coach wants to get upset about me keeping players away from the plate, he had better get over it pretty quickly.

If there was such an advantage gained from keeping players away from the plate, the NCAA wouldn't put it in their rule book. FED needs to follow suit.

LOL! Keeping players from breaking the rules is not your job. During a live ball you have recourse through rules that prohibit them from leaving the dugout (in both NCAA and Fed!). During a DB, you have no authority to keep them away. None. It may make your job easier, but that's all it does.

In reference to the OP, by putting up your hand and stopping them from advancing you have prevented them from interfering. If you don't consider that an advantage then I suggest a retraining course is in order.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

No, I would have used the term 'rotate' as I normally do when discussing proper mechanics.



LOL! Keeping players from breaking the rules is not your job. During a live ball you have recourse through rules that prohibit them from leaving the dugout (in both NCAA and Fed!). During a DB, you have no authority to keep them away. None. It may make your job easier, but that's all it does.

In reference to the OP, by putting up your hand and stopping them from advancing you have prevented them from interfering. If you don't consider that an advantage then I suggest a retraining course is in order.

I really don't see it as providing an unfair advantage, Mike.

I see nothing wrong with me saying, "Let him touch" and keeping a path clear as best I can. I believe there's room for some preventive officiating here. Of course, I do the exact same on every home run when teammates come out of the dugout.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I really don't see it as providing an unfair advantage, Mike.

I see nothing wrong with me saying, "Let him touch" and keeping a path clear as best I can. I believe there's room for some preventive officiating here. Of course, I do the exact same on every home run when teammates come out of the dugout.

Gee, Rich. Mike has told you that you need to be retrained.

Off you go, now.