Home plate appeal costs HS Conn team Championship.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

As for the term 'drift', it means to be out of position by virtue of habit. The PU drifted away from his proper position and it may have been as a result of not working enough 4 man games (who does?). If you are always in the proper position for every call and every play, good for you.

You used the term "drift" in a way that sounded like it was a proper mechanic. You said something to the effect of "The PU will drift up the line for a look at third".

zm283, sorry but we disagree. I provided a specific example of where it can bite you in the a-- and the coach was right. If you tell players to stay back, it may be for your good but it is also preventing an infraction from occuring. You just gave one team an advantage. I related the story (in another thread - just so you can follow along) of how, long ago, I would subtly point at a base when a runner touched it, especially home. I had seen some college partners do it and picked up the (bad) habit. A coach realized what I was doing and caught me when I saw a guy miss one. He immediately appealed and then had the balls to tell me that I told him that the runner missed by my actions. Never again.

No, your example has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Even during a dead ball, there is no advantage gained by keeping players away from the plate so you can see if it is touched or not. I ask again: How exactly does keeping teammates away from home plate prevent an infraction from happening? All it does is ensure I can see the touch, nothing else. Furthermore, pointing at a base is a different animal and completely off the subject. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand. If a coach wants to get upset about me keeping players away from the plate, he had better get over it pretty quickly.

If there was such an advantage gained from keeping players away from the plate, the NCAA wouldn't put it in their rule book. FED needs to follow suit.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by zm1283

You used the term "drift" in a way that sounded like it was a proper mechanic. You said something to the effect of "The PU will drift up the line for a look at third".

No, I would have used the term 'rotate' as I normally do when discussing proper mechanics.

No, your example has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Even during a dead ball, there is no advantage gained by keeping players away from the plate so you can see if it is touched or not. I ask again: How exactly does keeping teammates away from home plate prevent an infraction from happening? All it does is ensure I can see the touch, nothing else. Furthermore, pointing at a base is a different animal and completely off the subject. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand. If a coach wants to get upset about me keeping players away from the plate, he had better get over it pretty quickly.

If there was such an advantage gained from keeping players away from the plate, the NCAA wouldn't put it in their rule book. FED needs to follow suit.

LOL! Keeping players from breaking the rules is not your job. During a live ball you have recourse through rules that prohibit them from leaving the dugout (in both NCAA and Fed!). During a DB, you have no authority to keep them away. None. It may make your job easier, but that's all it does.

In reference to the OP, by putting up your hand and stopping them from advancing you have prevented them from interfering. If you don't consider that an advantage then I suggest a retraining course is in order.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

No, I would have used the term 'rotate' as I normally do when discussing proper mechanics.



LOL! Keeping players from breaking the rules is not your job. During a live ball you have recourse through rules that prohibit them from leaving the dugout (in both NCAA and Fed!). During a DB, you have no authority to keep them away. None. It may make your job easier, but that's all it does.

In reference to the OP, by putting up your hand and stopping them from advancing you have prevented them from interfering. If you don't consider that an advantage then I suggest a retraining course is in order.

I really don't see it as providing an unfair advantage, Mike.

I see nothing wrong with me saying, "Let him touch" and keeping a path clear as best I can. I believe there's room for some preventive officiating here. Of course, I do the exact same on every home run when teammates come out of the dugout.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I really don't see it as providing an unfair advantage, Mike.

I see nothing wrong with me saying, "Let him touch" and keeping a path clear as best I can. I believe there's room for some preventive officiating here. Of course, I do the exact same on every home run when teammates come out of the dugout.

Gee, Rich. Mike has told you that you need to be retrained.

Off you go, now.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Gee, Rich. Mike has told you that you need to be retrained.

Off you go, now.

I'm confident in my difference in opinion.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Gee, Rich. Mike has told you that you need to be retrained.

Off you go, now.

If you still insist that preventing a team from doing something illegal is appropriate in baseball that doesn't involve a tee, then you need the retraining. I never mentoned Rich or any other umpire by name, it seems you are doing a Conrad Dobler.

I just read nine pages of discussion regarding a batter-runner interference call that would be largely ignored by most of the respondees. Hell, most had never even considered it to be interference. If you believe you cannot learn new things or improve then you will never work games on that stage. Those umpires made a tough call, just like the ones involved in this thread's play. They didn't take the easy way out. Call what you see and stop coaching.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

If you still insist that preventing a team from doing something illegal is appropriate in baseball that doesn't involve a tee, then you need the retraining. I never mentoned Rich or any other umpire by name, it seems you are doing a Conrad Dobler.

I guess I need to be restrained too because that is my officiating philosophy period. Every sport I was told to tell players when they are close to causing an infraction or say things to them even when they have not committed an infraction so that we do not have to spend all day calling things that are borderline. Now that does not mean we should not call something if it happens. It just means I would not like to call something so minor or not obvious all the time. I think that is being a good official. And just because we say something to a player really does not mean we are preventing them from causing an infraction, we are making them aware of something and if we make a call they can realize they have been warned. For example I am not going to allow a batter to set up clearly out of the box because it might give the other team an advantage if they contact the ball or the ball contacts them.

Peace

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess I need to be restrained too because that is my officiating philosophy period. Every sport I was told to tell players when they are close to causing an infraction or say things to them even when they have not committed an infraction so that we do not have to spend all day calling things that are borderline. Now that does not mean we should not call something if it happens. It just means I would not like to call something so minor or not obvious all the time. I think that is being a good official. And just because we say something to a player really does not mean we are preventing them from causing an infraction, we are making them aware of something and if we make a call they can realize they have been warned. For example I am not going to allow a batter to set up clearly out of the box because it might give the other team an advantage if they contact the ball or the ball contacts them.

Peace

If that is the case, your instructors did you no service. Warning a player before he commits an infraction is giving that team an advantage. Show me a mechanics manual of merit that tells umpires to help a player avoid commiting a rule infraction. In the play we are discussing, if the players step into the plate area during a live ball, man up and do your job.

I realize that high school sports allows umpires a bit more latitude to coach rather than making the hard call. When ratings drive you, it is critical to ignore 'minor' infractions. Don't choose which rules you will enforce. Watch the CWS this week and see how those guys work. They make the tough calls and deal with the ramifications. That is what got them there. That is why they keep getting asked back to work the big games.

Happy Father's Day to those of you who have that title. Enjoy your day.

[Tim C]

Sometimes Mike you're just wrong in how officiating is done in the modern age.

I have been taught for many, many moons that preventive officiating is not only accepted but it clearly defines the top officials from the "almost" top officials.

Quietly reminding a pitcher that he needs to "pause better" when you are a base umpire, telling post men in basketball to quit pushing on each other while trying to gain position, or assiting a wide reciever to line up legally in a football game are not coaching.

Telling players to stay back on the grass as a runner scores is not coaching it is asking that the players respect you in doing your job.

T

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

...

LOL! Keeping players from breaking the rules is not your job. During a live ball you have recourse through rules that prohibit them from leaving the dugout (in both NCAA and Fed!). During a DB, you have no authority to keep them away. None. It may make your job easier, but that's all it does.

In reference to the OP, by putting up your hand and stopping them from advancing you have prevented them from interfering. If you don't consider that an advantage then I suggest a retraining course is in order.

Mike,

While you are correct that FED rules do not prohibit players from leaving the dugout during a dead ball - say, after a home run - NCAA has recently changed this rule, so that now:

d. After a home run, no offensive team member, other than the base
coaches, shall touch the batter-runner before home plate has been
touched. Team personnel, except for preceding base runners and the
on-deck batter, shall not leave the warning track area in front of the
dugout (a recommended minimum area of 15 feet) to congratulate the
batter-runner and other base runners.

Regardless, ALL three codes contain language to the effect that:

..Each umpire has authority to order a player, coach, manager or club officer or employee to do or refrain from doing anything which affects the administering of these rules, ...

When I tell the players to "stay back" - I usually go with something like, "Gentlemen, toes on the grass until he reaches. Thank you." - I am simply instructing the players not to interfere with my ability to see whether or not the player touches so I may properly administer the rules.

I have all the rules support I need to so order them and I am NOT "coaching" them.

JM

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Mike,

While you are correct that FED rules do not prohibit players from leaving the dugout during a dead ball - say, after a home run - NCAA has recently changed this rule, so that now:



Regardless, ALL three codes contain language to the effect that:



When I tell the players to "stay back" - I usually go with something like, "Gentlemen, toes on the grass until he reaches. Thank you." - I am simply instructing the players not to interfere with my ability to see whether or not the player touches so I may properly administer the rules.

I have all the rules support I need to so order them and I am NOT "coaching" them.

JM

No, John, you are most certainly coaching them. It is no different than telling another player to not do something that would be an infraction. You are telling players to stay back - that is involving yourself in the game. While it may be to allow you a clear look at the plate, it is also crossing a line.

I know that many here subscribe to the theory of preventive umpring. Consider the typical, "Catcher, go tell your pitcher to stop or I'll balk him." You just prevented an infraction from occuring and it made your life easier. You also just gave one team an advantage. Call what you see, not what is convenient.