Home plate appeal costs HS Conn team Championship.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by zm1283

You used the term "drift" in a way that sounded like it was a proper mechanic. You said something to the effect of "The PU will drift up the line for a look at third".

No, I would have used the term 'rotate' as I normally do when discussing proper mechanics.

No, your example has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Even during a dead ball, there is no advantage gained by keeping players away from the plate so you can see if it is touched or not. I ask again: How exactly does keeping teammates away from home plate prevent an infraction from happening? All it does is ensure I can see the touch, nothing else. Furthermore, pointing at a base is a different animal and completely off the subject. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand. If a coach wants to get upset about me keeping players away from the plate, he had better get over it pretty quickly.

If there was such an advantage gained from keeping players away from the plate, the NCAA wouldn't put it in their rule book. FED needs to follow suit.

LOL! Keeping players from breaking the rules is not your job. During a live ball you have recourse through rules that prohibit them from leaving the dugout (in both NCAA and Fed!). During a DB, you have no authority to keep them away. None. It may make your job easier, but that's all it does.

In reference to the OP, by putting up your hand and stopping them from advancing you have prevented them from interfering. If you don't consider that an advantage then I suggest a retraining course is in order.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

No, I would have used the term 'rotate' as I normally do when discussing proper mechanics.



LOL! Keeping players from breaking the rules is not your job. During a live ball you have recourse through rules that prohibit them from leaving the dugout (in both NCAA and Fed!). During a DB, you have no authority to keep them away. None. It may make your job easier, but that's all it does.

In reference to the OP, by putting up your hand and stopping them from advancing you have prevented them from interfering. If you don't consider that an advantage then I suggest a retraining course is in order.

I really don't see it as providing an unfair advantage, Mike.

I see nothing wrong with me saying, "Let him touch" and keeping a path clear as best I can. I believe there's room for some preventive officiating here. Of course, I do the exact same on every home run when teammates come out of the dugout.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I really don't see it as providing an unfair advantage, Mike.

I see nothing wrong with me saying, "Let him touch" and keeping a path clear as best I can. I believe there's room for some preventive officiating here. Of course, I do the exact same on every home run when teammates come out of the dugout.

Gee, Rich. Mike has told you that you need to be retrained.

Off you go, now.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Gee, Rich. Mike has told you that you need to be retrained.

Off you go, now.

I'm confident in my difference in opinion.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Gee, Rich. Mike has told you that you need to be retrained.

Off you go, now.

If you still insist that preventing a team from doing something illegal is appropriate in baseball that doesn't involve a tee, then you need the retraining. I never mentoned Rich or any other umpire by name, it seems you are doing a Conrad Dobler.

I just read nine pages of discussion regarding a batter-runner interference call that would be largely ignored by most of the respondees. Hell, most had never even considered it to be interference. If you believe you cannot learn new things or improve then you will never work games on that stage. Those umpires made a tough call, just like the ones involved in this thread's play. They didn't take the easy way out. Call what you see and stop coaching.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

If you still insist that preventing a team from doing something illegal is appropriate in baseball that doesn't involve a tee, then you need the retraining. I never mentoned Rich or any other umpire by name, it seems you are doing a Conrad Dobler.

I guess I need to be restrained too because that is my officiating philosophy period. Every sport I was told to tell players when they are close to causing an infraction or say things to them even when they have not committed an infraction so that we do not have to spend all day calling things that are borderline. Now that does not mean we should not call something if it happens. It just means I would not like to call something so minor or not obvious all the time. I think that is being a good official. And just because we say something to a player really does not mean we are preventing them from causing an infraction, we are making them aware of something and if we make a call they can realize they have been warned. For example I am not going to allow a batter to set up clearly out of the box because it might give the other team an advantage if they contact the ball or the ball contacts them.

Peace

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess I need to be restrained too because that is my officiating philosophy period. Every sport I was told to tell players when they are close to causing an infraction or say things to them even when they have not committed an infraction so that we do not have to spend all day calling things that are borderline. Now that does not mean we should not call something if it happens. It just means I would not like to call something so minor or not obvious all the time. I think that is being a good official. And just because we say something to a player really does not mean we are preventing them from causing an infraction, we are making them aware of something and if we make a call they can realize they have been warned. For example I am not going to allow a batter to set up clearly out of the box because it might give the other team an advantage if they contact the ball or the ball contacts them.

Peace

If that is the case, your instructors did you no service. Warning a player before he commits an infraction is giving that team an advantage. Show me a mechanics manual of merit that tells umpires to help a player avoid commiting a rule infraction. In the play we are discussing, if the players step into the plate area during a live ball, man up and do your job.

I realize that high school sports allows umpires a bit more latitude to coach rather than making the hard call. When ratings drive you, it is critical to ignore 'minor' infractions. Don't choose which rules you will enforce. Watch the CWS this week and see how those guys work. They make the tough calls and deal with the ramifications. That is what got them there. That is why they keep getting asked back to work the big games.

Happy Father's Day to those of you who have that title. Enjoy your day.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

If that is the case, your instructors did you no service. Warning a player before he commits an infraction is giving that team an advantage. Show me a mechanics manual of merit that tells umpires to help a player avoid commiting a rule infraction. In the play we are discussing, if the players step into the plate area during a live ball, man up and do your job.

I guess that every basketball official that tells a thrower in a throw in what he can do he is doing the game a disservice. I guess it is wrong in that same sport to tell the players on a free throw to stay in their lane or stay to wait until a certain moment to enter the lane. Then I guess as a football official to ever tell a player they are marginal on an encroachment penalty or a holding penalty. Or I guess all the times I have defenders hit "receivers" while running routes in the secondary even when the action had not advantage I should also not say a word, because if that is not the case, then every single accomplished or veteran official/umpire that I have worked with does this for many things. I guess they are all totally wrong by doing such things, even though every camp I have attended or training there are tools like this discussed by everyone. Not every situation that we deal with as officials are in a book somewhere. I really hope that is your total justification for what we do in this case and others. I have never read a book how to deal with arguments, but somehow there are umpires that have techniques to deal with those situations.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I realize that high school sports allows umpires a bit more latitude to coach rather than making the hard call. When ratings drive you, it is critical to ignore 'minor' infractions. Don't choose which rules you will enforce. Watch the CWS this week and see how those guys work. They make the tough calls and deal with the ramifications. That is what got them there. That is why they keep getting asked back to work the big games.

Not sure what ratings have to do with this situation at all. I also have worked a lot of college over the years and I use similar tactics to prevent infractions of all kinds as an umpire at the high school level. The CWS is also not a good comparison for one the level of scrutiny is a lot different. If they make a call on a balk there is tape to back them up. A game in the middle of March they work probably is not even recorded other than by a parent and I doubt they are even taping from an angle that anyone would notice. Now since you brought it up one of the guys working the CWS is a Division 1 Basketball Supervisor of a Conference in the Midwest. I bet he did not get to that part by telling officials to not use preventative tactics from time to time and I doubt he got to that point as an umpire doing the same. And I know this because I know officials that work for him at his D1 league and other leagues and I have never heard them suggest to not do what is common in basketball to prevent problems. Maybe I am wrong, but I am going to take a wild guess that if I ever asked him about what you just said he might employ some of those things we are talking about here. Now, I am not saying to do this every single time, just suggesting that there are times and methods to employ such tactics and to tell a player when they might create an infraction of the rules. Because when make the call we are at a point of no return and now we have to call other minor infractions. I would rather talk a kid out of a minor infraction then call one and have to call one all day. And if that is your position, you must not also explain to a player or coach what they did on a balk, because that is also not in the book either.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Show me a mechanics manual of merit that tells umpires to help a player avoid commiting a rule infraction.

Hey, WR (or CB) back up you're in the neutral zone. "Let's go batter" a couple of seconds before they would get an automatic strike. Holding a stop sign up to a coach who wants time but comes out while ball still live. LOTS of examples, in every sport.

[Tim C]

Sometimes Mike you're just wrong in how officiating is done in the modern age.

I have been taught for many, many moons that preventive officiating is not only accepted but it clearly defines the top officials from the "almost" top officials.

Quietly reminding a pitcher that he needs to "pause better" when you are a base umpire, telling post men in basketball to quit pushing on each other while trying to gain position, or assiting a wide reciever to line up legally in a football game are not coaching.

Telling players to stay back on the grass as a runner scores is not coaching it is asking that the players respect you in doing your job.

T

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Sometimes Mike you're just wrong in how officiating is done in the modern age.

I have been taught for many, many moons that preventive officiating is not only accepted but it clearly defines the top officials from the "almost" top officials.

Quietly reminding a pitcher that he needs to "pause better" when you are a base umpire, telling post men in basketball to quit pushing on each other while trying to gain position, or assiting a wide reciever to line up legally in a football game are not coaching.

Telling players to stay back on the grass as a runner scores is not coaching it is asking that the players respect you in doing your job.

T

I am just a little ole' HS official, but I am happy to send a catcher out to talk to a pitcher (I'll call a balk when the pitcher balks, but when he's close but not balking, it hurts nobody to have the catcher remind him that he's close) or talk to post players to let them know I'm there. What I'm saying is that I agree completely.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Sometimes Mike you're just wrong in how officiating is done in the modern age.

I have been taught for many, many moons that preventive officiating is not only accepted but it clearly defines the top officials from the "almost" top officials.

Quietly reminding a pitcher that he needs to "pause better" when you are a base umpire, telling post men in basketball to quit pushing on each other while trying to gain position, or assiting a wide reciever to line up legally in a football game are not coaching.

Telling players to stay back on the grass as a runner scores is not coaching it is asking that the players respect you in doing your job.

T

I've heard very similar words from Rich Fetchiet, Dave Yeast and Nick Zibelli and I teach the same.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

...

LOL! Keeping players from breaking the rules is not your job. During a live ball you have recourse through rules that prohibit them from leaving the dugout (in both NCAA and Fed!). During a DB, you have no authority to keep them away. None. It may make your job easier, but that's all it does.

In reference to the OP, by putting up your hand and stopping them from advancing you have prevented them from interfering. If you don't consider that an advantage then I suggest a retraining course is in order.

Mike,

While you are correct that FED rules do not prohibit players from leaving the dugout during a dead ball - say, after a home run - NCAA has recently changed this rule, so that now:

d. After a home run, no offensive team member, other than the base
coaches, shall touch the batter-runner before home plate has been
touched. Team personnel, except for preceding base runners and the
on-deck batter, shall not leave the warning track area in front of the
dugout (a recommended minimum area of 15 feet) to congratulate the
batter-runner and other base runners.

Regardless, ALL three codes contain language to the effect that:

..Each umpire has authority to order a player, coach, manager or club officer or employee to do or refrain from doing anything which affects the administering of these rules, ...

When I tell the players to "stay back" - I usually go with something like, "Gentlemen, toes on the grass until he reaches. Thank you." - I am simply instructing the players not to interfere with my ability to see whether or not the player touches so I may properly administer the rules.

I have all the rules support I need to so order them and I am NOT "coaching" them.

JM

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Mike,

While you are correct that FED rules do not prohibit players from leaving the dugout during a dead ball - say, after a home run - NCAA has recently changed this rule, so that now:



Regardless, ALL three codes contain language to the effect that:



When I tell the players to "stay back" - I usually go with something like, "Gentlemen, toes on the grass until he reaches. Thank you." - I am simply instructing the players not to interfere with my ability to see whether or not the player touches so I may properly administer the rules.

I have all the rules support I need to so order them and I am NOT "coaching" them.

JM

No, John, you are most certainly coaching them. It is no different than telling another player to not do something that would be an infraction. You are telling players to stay back - that is involving yourself in the game. While it may be to allow you a clear look at the plate, it is also crossing a line.

I know that many here subscribe to the theory of preventive umpring. Consider the typical, "Catcher, go tell your pitcher to stop or I'll balk him." You just prevented an infraction from occuring and it made your life easier. You also just gave one team an advantage. Call what you see, not what is convenient.