Home plate appeal costs HS Conn team Championship.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Again, I offer the play involving an umpire telling a defensive player to warn the pitcher that he will be called for a balk unless he changes his delivery. That play has been mentioned numerous times as acceptable.

If you're saying the pitcher balked and was told "If you do it again, I'll call it", I agree. Just call it the first time.

I'm not sure that's what everyone else is saying.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If you're saying the pitcher balked and was told "If you do it again, I'll call it", I agree. Just call it the first time.

I'm not sure that's what everyone else is saying.

Bob, another member wrote that he has no problem telling the catcher to go talk to the pitcher about stopping. I believe the phrase used was 'quietly tell him to pause better" or something similar. Several members agreed. I related the story of someone we both have worked with who was caught telling the shortstop the same thing. (The SS stayed in his position and said something like, "Hey, he said he's going to balk you if you don't stop better than that.") the only thing it prevented was laughter from the offensive coach. He should have just caused the balk. If you see a poor stop, call it, don't coach. End of story.

Getting back to the original play, years ago we were told to make sure players didn't step into the dirt area around home plate in celebration - live or dead didn't matter. I offered a play where I prevented them from doing so and the HC chewed me out for preventing interference or at the very least, a possible ejection for leaving the dugout. While I understand and you know you are aware of how I umpire, I agree with the coach and current thinking of the better umpires in the game. Just call what you see and work hard to make certain it is correct. Interaction between players is limited to pleasantries and essential communication. Now, I readily admit that I have broken the rule and done things that I now find to be more trouble than helpful. I still make mistakes but work much harder to make certain they are only noticeable to my peers, not the players. Yes, I still say things on the field I shouldn't and often regret doing so. In the end, it is far better to disappear out there. You don't do that by helping a team cheat and that is what coaching while officiating is.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

You don't do that by helping a team cheat and that is what coaching while officiating is.

while all of us will draw the line at a different point, there is a difference between coaching and preventive officiating.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Bob, another member wrote that he has no problem telling the catcher to go talk to the pitcher about stopping. I believe the phrase used was 'quietly tell him to pause better" or something similar. Several members agreed. I related the story of someone we both have worked with who was caught telling the shortstop the same thing. (The SS stayed in his position and said something like, "Hey, he said he's going to balk you if you don't stop better than that.") the only thing it prevented was laughter from the offensive coach. He should have just caused the balk. If you see a poor stop, call it, don't coach. End of story.

Reading is fundamental. Go back and re-read what that member wrote. He wasn't talking about not calling balks; he was talking about warning the pitcher when he's getting close but not quite violating the rules.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Reading is fundamental. Go back and re-read what that member wrote. He wasn't talking about not calling balks; he was talking about warning the pitcher when he's getting close but not quite violating the rules.

Your need to insult is sad. I can have an opinion without needing to demean the other. I read the posts just fine.

From Tim -
Quietly reminding a pitcher that he needs to "pause better" when you are a base umpire, telling post men in basketball to quit pushing on each other while trying to gain position, or assiting a wide reciever to line up legally in a football game are not coaching.

From RichMSN - I am just a little ole' HS official, but I am happy to send a catcher out to talk to a pitcher (I'll call a balk when the pitcher balks, but when he's close but not balking, it hurts nobody to have the catcher remind him that he's close) or talk to post players to let them know I'm there. What I'm saying is that I agree completely.

Tim and RichMSN both spoke about warning a pitcher after seeing him do something that you know isn't right. (Otherwise, you are simply an OOO.) As I and many others here have stated before, it ether is a balk or it isn't. If it isn't and you feel the need to tell a player to do something to avoid balking then you are coaching. If you don't have the fortitude to call the balk then hang up the gear. Yes, we all miss balks and then stew over the reality of it. Warning a guy after that is just as awful. Call what you see. Let the coaches do their job.

I find it particularly funny that a number of threads involve members who insist that they aren't paid to coach and bemoan leagues that require explanations for balks, INT, OBS, etc. Now, they are silent. Hmmmm.

Yes Bob, we all have tolerances for what is ethical and not. As with many things in umpiring, acceptable behavior is evolving. At one time, you could argue just as vehemently as the antagonist. At one time, you could simply make your call and ignore the call for getting assistance. Old school, unwritten rules are slowly falling away from upper level baseball. You won't see a CWS umpire pick and choose which rules are worthy of enforcement. Those are the guys I emulate.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

You did nothing noble nor unethical. In fact, you simply followed the rules, it seems, unknowingly. Rule 5.10 (c) (1) reads, "If an accident to a runner is such as to prevent him from proceeding to a base to which he is entitled, as on a home run hit out of the playing field, or an award of one or more bases, a substitute runner shall be permitted to complete the play."

No, I told them how to follow the rules by telling them to how the substitute runner needs to touch the bases legally.

In other words, preventative officiating.

And it was accepted at a level with ex-MLB guys on the field.

If it has its place there, even in limited circumstance, then it must have its place at the high school or college level as well.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Your need to insult is sad. I can have an opinion without needing to demean the other. I read the posts just fine.

Not a need so much as a desire. I normally censor myself, but didn't bother this time.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

No, I told them how to follow the rules by telling them to how the substitute runner needs to touch the bases legally.

In other words, preventative officiating.

And it was accepted at a level with ex-MLB guys on the field.

If it has its place there, even in limited circumstance, then it must have its place at the high school or college level as well.

+1

This is no different than a coach coming to you to report a change. Said change includes re-inserting a prior substitute (already in and out) back into the lineup.

As the UIC, you know the player is ineligible and should inform the coach as much..........

Preventative Officiating

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

No, I told them how to follow the rules by telling them to how the substitute runner needs to touch the bases legally.

In other words, preventative officiating.

And it was accepted at a level with ex-MLB guys on the field.

If it has its place there, even in limited circumstance, then it must have its place at the high school or college level as well.

That's too bad. Had you simply known the correct rule, you woudln't have had to bother trying to impress or feel good after. If you had an ex-MLB partner who didn't apply that rule then we know why he is an ex.

The ball is dead when it went out of play. He is awarded two bases and most umpires know you have to touch the bases in the correct order, yes, even on awards.

Preventive (spelled correctly) officiating is an oxymoron.

I will relate another issue that arose during Illinois playoffs this year. Another thread told of the matter but details were not present. My partner ejected a player for wearing what the IHSA considers to be jewelry. He claims he issued a warning and then the player stepped into the box with the bracelet on. Fair enough, it was his call and handled by the powers that be. In order to avoid similar problems in the next game, while checking bats and hats I asked the coach to make sure no one was wearing jewelry. It was innocent enough and what many of you consider preventive umpiring. After the game, a number of fellow umpires asked about what had transpired during the series. I relayed the details and had an umpire I truly respect tell me that I crossed the line. He said that it isn't my job to be the jewelry police and by warning them prior to the game I had prevented them from breaking a rule later. He told me to call what I see and not attempt to do what the coach is supposed to do, namely ensure that all players are properly equipped and within the rules of our administration. He was right. I'm simply doing what he did for me - help others understand that old school and innocent communication can be perceived as a violation of our code of responsibility.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not a need so much as a desire. I normally censor myself, but didn't bother this time.

I understand. That is why I posted exactly what Tim and RichMSN wrote regarding non-balk coaching. Maybe it isn't too late for your parents to get a refund from your reading teachers.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by asdf

+1

This is no different than a coach coming to you to report a change. Said change includes re-inserting a prior substitute (already in and out) back into the lineup.

As the UIC, you know the player is ineligible and should inform the coach as much..........

Preventative Officiating

No. You, as the arbitor of the game, should not allow players to knowingly enter the game when they are inappropriate. That is not coaching. It is informing the coach that his actions are illegal, AFTER he has told you of his intent. You are merely calling what you see.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I can have an opinion without needing to demean the other.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Maybe it isn't too late for your parents to get a refund from your reading teachers.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I understand. That is why I posted exactly what Tim and RichMSN wrote regarding non-balk coaching. Maybe it isn't too late for your parents to get a refund from your reading teachers.

I thought you were able to disagree without demeaning others?

I think we both read it the same, and have differing opinions on whether it's ok. Frankly, I was responding to this statement, which lead me to think you mis-read Rich and thought he was letting balks go uncalled in the name of preventative preventive officiating:

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

He should have just caused the balk. If you see a poor stop, call it, don't coach. End of story.

Perhaps you were just unclear.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not a need so much as a desire. I normally censor myself, but didn't bother this time.

I see you brought your "when in Rome" philosophy to the baseball forum.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Your need to insult is sad.

Ditto.

I can have an opinion without needing to demean the other.

Can you let us know when that's going to start?