Dead Ball?

[Rufus]

Situation: 1st base open, 2 strikes on the batter, no outs. Batter swings at pitch and misses for strike three, but the ball strikes him in the arm and deflects away from catcher. BR advances to 1st on the dropped third.

Reading Fed 5-1-1 it says:

Ball becomes dead immediately when: a pitch touches a batter or his clothing; 1. The ball becomes dead even though the batter strikes at it

Fed 7-2-1(b) says:

A strike is charged to the batter when: a pitch is struck at and missed (even if the pitch touches the batter)

Based on the above. Should this have been a dead ball, batter's out on swing/miss on 3rd strike? OBR 6.05(f) seems to address this as well.

[mbyron]

Yes. Dead-ball strike, batter cannot advance.

[MD Longhorn]

Please, for got's sake, tell us the umpire didn't give this runner 1st or allow anyone to advance (or worse... say "Hands are part of the bat.")

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Please, for got's sake, tell us the umpire didn't give this runner 1st or allow anyone to advance (or worse... say "Hands are part of the bat.")

Well, I can say that you got 1/2 of your wish. Runners advanced, BR allowed to stay on 1st. Since the ball didn't hit the BR's hands no chance to break that chestnut out.

I should have protested, but live and learn.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rufus

BR advances to 1st on the dropped third.

BTW, you can prevent this. On any HBP, the proper mechanic is "Time!" Sell that immediately and loudly, and the batter will turn around and look at you, probably expecting you to award him 1B.

Then just calmly say, "That's strike 3 on the swing. He's out." And signal the out.

When the coach comes out to ask, just tell him that the swing made strike 3, and the ball became dead when it hit the batter, preventing him from advancing. If he complains about the fairness of that rule, tell him to coach his batters not to swing at pitches that are about to hit them.

[MD Longhorn]

Here's an easy thing to remember.

Always. 100% of the time. No exceptions: When the batter is hit by the pitch (no matter where, and no matter what else was happening), the ball is dead. Period.

Start with that, and then rule on the pitch. Ball? HBP? Strike in the zone (had this just 2 weeks ago!)? Swinging strike?

But start with --- the ball is dead. The rest becomes obvious after that.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by mbyron

BTW, you can prevent this. On any HBP, the proper mechanic is "Time!" Sell that immediately and loudly, and the batter will turn around and look at you, probably expecting you to award him 1B.

Then just calmly say, "That's strike 3 on the swing. He's out." And signal the out.

When the coach comes out to ask, just tell him that the swing made strike 3, and the ball became dead when it hit the batter, preventing him from advancing. If he complains about the fairness of that rule, tell him to coach his batters not to swing at pitches that are about to hit them.

I agree that would have been nice to see. Unfortunately I was the defensive coach and was not able to convince the PU.

[BretMan]

Did you actually talk to the umpire and did he actually say he saw the pitch touch the batter? We know the rule, but what we don't know is what the plate umpire saw and judged. Maybe he didn't call time because he didn't see it hit the batter.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Did you actually talk to the umpire and did he actually say he saw the pitch touch the batter? We know the rule, but what we don't know is what the plate umpire saw and judged. Maybe he didn't call time because he didn't see it hit the batter.

Absolutely. At first I was going to let it go but a light bulb went off when I thought "that hit the batter, it's a dead ball." I asked for time to discuss it with the PU. The PU said that it was still a live ball even though it had hit the batter. The BU came in and backed him up on it as well (both that the batter was hit by the ball and that it was still live).

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Absolutely. At first I was going to let it go but a light bulb went off when I thought "that hit the batter, it's a dead ball." I asked for time to discuss it with the PU. The PU said that it was still a live ball even though it had hit the batter. The BU came in and backed him up on it as well (both that the batter was hit by the ball and that it was still live).

Sounds like at least a friendly conversation with the UIC is in order. Even the most green umpire should know the ball is dead here. Might not know what to do about it on a strike ... but SURELY should know it's dead.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Sounds like at least a friendly conversation with the UIC is in order. Even the most green umpire should know the ball is dead here. Might not know what to do about it on a strike ... but SURELY should know it's dead.

I actually know the assignor for this association and I discussed with him that day and he confirmed the BU's ruling. Based on my research and this thread he and I had a discussion this afternoon that was very cordial. I wasn't looking to score points or "win" an argument, but wanted to be sure there was an understanding of the rule and see if he had a different interpretation (he and I go back a few years and he has always been approachable which is why I felt comfortable handling this way).

I made sure to let him know that one call didn't win/lose the game for us (us not scoring enough and allowing too many runs took care of that) and emphasized that I call basketball, am always looking to get rules correct, and will do research to ensure I get the correct answer. He was appreciative and said he'd be sure to let his guys know for future reference.

[jicecone]

So the PU didn't know.

The BU didn't know.

Their assignor didn't know.

Coach, you have a long season ahead of you.

[MD Longhorn]

I can't overestimate how sad it makes me that someone has risen to the UIC level and doesn't know this simple principle. Really makes you wonder what other things he doesn't know and should. This is REALLY basic stuff.

[kylejt]

Honestly, someone needs to put a tent on that circus.

What type of ball is this? Little League? PONY? HS? Someone in a position of authority is giving out some bum information. I wonder what other type of nonsense is being dispensed.

Edit: You said FED, but maybe it's little kids, with rookie umpires, playing HS rules. If this is HS, then the kids are really being shortchanged by idiots. These fellows are making good money. They should know the basics. Why rookies are allowed to do ANY sort of HS ball is beyond me. Start in LL, and work your way up. Some of the worst umpires I've ever seen are working at the HS level, and there's no reason for it. You should, IMO, have at least two years on the diamond before you work a HS game. The kids deserve it.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Why rookies are allowed to do ANY sort of HS ball is beyond me. Start in LL, and work your way up. Some of the worst umpires I've ever seen are working at the HS level, and there's no reason for it. You should, IMO, have at least two years on the diamond before you work a HS game. The kids deserve it.

Actually, it seems to me that (assuming the umpire knows the rules and has proven it via test!) it's actually easier to umpire a high school game than an 8U game. You can know 80% of the rules and have nothing happen in a high school season that you can't handle. Yeah, you may miss one here and there, but for the most part, you'll be ok. (At the same time, generally you want your rookies working with a veteran for a while).

However, at 8U or 10U - those 20% of the rules that you don't know will ALL pop up, all in your very first game.