Rules Question

[dketter]

I am coaching a 4th grade baseball team, we are playing MLB rules other than the fact that the whole team bats.

Tonight we had a game where our team was in the field, we believed that we had two outs, we got another out and our team started leaving the field. There was a runner on 3rd base who when we started to leave the field, left his base and went to the dugout. Not all of our players had left the field when we were alerted that it was only the 2nd out. Our 3rd baseman who had not left the field of play picked up the ball went to third base and touched the bag. he stayed there and waited for the runner to return to the base and tagged him as he walked back to the base. The Umpire called "Time" before the base runner returned to the bag because we were questioning about the runner being out.

The umpire let the runner return to the base and we continued the inning, that call cost us at least a tie to an otherwise undefeated season.I have 24 hours to appeal the call if I so choose.

A similar incident happened in a previous game however we were on the other side of this situation and our runner was called out. the umpire of that game informed us that it was our player's responsibility to know the number of outs and since he left the base he was out.

Wonder if anyone has any thoughts on the situation, if you need further information please let me know

thank you,
Dave

[cookie]

"...left his base and went to the dugout."

It's my understanding that if R3 entered the dugout, it is definitely "Abandonment;" therefore R3 is out just for that - no tag necessarry. (Some might even argue that just leaving the baseline heading toward the dugout constitutes abandonment of the base.)

I guess another consideration here is that this is a game between 10 yr olds (4th graders?), so some developmental instruction/leeway might be in order...

[yawetag]

Let's ignore the abandonment rule that cookie mentioned. That rule in and of itself would be the third out, but I have another way to get it.

It's based on one question: Was there at least one member of your team between the foul lines at all times? If so, F5's action of taking the ball and touching the base is an appeal for me, and I'm getting the third out.

Either way, you need to protest. Your protest should include both examples on reasons the third out should have been upheld. The best thing that can happen is you get the win and the umpire learns something.

[rcaverly]

Originally Posted by dketter

I am coaching a 4th grade baseball team, we are playing MLB rules other than the fact that the whole team bats.

I would hazard a guess that there are more exceptions to the rules than simply “the whole team bats.” If not, then shame on the league for not using common sense, the coaches for not insisting on the use of common sense and the parents for being so senselessly gullible.

Originally Posted by dketter

I am coaching a 4th grade baseball team…thank you,
Dave

No, thank you, Dave. Your efforts will be rewarded. Prep your charges for high school ball, commonly a step towards MLB.

Originally Posted by cookie

(Some might even argue that just leaving the baseline heading toward the dugout constitutes abandonment of the base.)

Yes, we would.

Originally Posted by cookie

I guess another consideration here is that this is a game between 10 yr olds (4th graders?), so some developmental instruction/leeway might be in order...

Cookie makes a good point: Dave, try your best to keep it all in perspective. Going undefeated at the age of ten is less important than teaching ten year-olds to listen to their base coaches, if indeed the base coaches knew there were less than three outs.

Winning on an appeal is like kissing your sister.

[MikeStrybel]

We are talking about 10 year old kids here. Dave wrote that they were all fooled into believing three outs occured. If the coaches and adults all were confused, penalizing Junior for wandering when told is rough. I coach the same level and mistakes happen - usually on the part of the kids. I understand it is a lesson but if the coaches and umpires are complicit, the penalty (an out on the runner for abandoning) is inappropriate. Pro rules should be used where pro umpires are in place.

Enjoy the experience, Dave. You'll learn more about life and baseball through their eyes.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by yawetag

Let's ignore the abandonment rule that cookie mentioned. That rule in and of itself would be the third out, but I have another way to get it.

It's based on one question: Was there at least one member of your team between the foul lines at all times? If so, F5's action of taking the ball and touching the base is an appeal for me, and I'm getting the third out.

Either way, you need to protest. Your protest should include both examples on reasons the third out should have been upheld. The best thing that can happen is you get the win and the umpire learns something.

No, he doesn't need to protest. He needs to chalk it up as something that happens in games involving 10-year-olds and *move on*.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by rcaverly

I would hazard a guess that there are more exceptions to the rules than simply “the whole team bats.” If not, then shame on the league for not using common sense, the coaches for not insisting on the use of common sense and the parents for being so senselessly gullible.

I guess they're all using wood bats, too.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by yawetag

It's based on one question: Was there at least one member of your team between the foul lines at all times? If so, F5's action of taking the ball and touching the base is an appeal for me, and I'm getting the third out.

What kind appeal would that be, missed base or retouch?

I agree with Rich: the lesson here is to move on, keep better track of the outs in future, and not turn this into a federal case. It's 10YO's for cryin' out loud.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by mbyron

What kind appeal would that be, missed base or retouch?

I agree with Rich: the lesson here is to move on, keep better track of the outs in future, and not turn this into a federal case. It's 10YO's for cryin' out loud.

I too am unsure what you would be appealing here.

And with 10 year-olds, win or lose, we're still going to DQ afterwards.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by dketter

Wonder if anyone has any thoughts on the situation, if you need further information please let me know

I agree with what the umpire did.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by yawetag

It's based on one question: Was there at least one member of your team between the foul lines at all times? If so, F5's action of taking the ball and touching the base is an appeal for me, and I'm getting the third out.

An appeal of ... what? Not being on the base? This is not an appealable transgression. Either the runner is out when they enter the dugout, or he's simply not on the base and must be tagged. There's no appeal at all here.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

No, he doesn't need to protest. He needs to chalk it up as something that happens in games involving 10-year-olds and *move on*.

I agree in general. However, it's worth bringing to the attention of the board that they have 1 umpire calling abandonment outs at 10U and another letting them return without liability to be put out. For consistency sake, this should be brought to UIC's attention.

But I agree - protesting a 10U league game? Really? Tourney or playoffs, ok - select, ok. But league? Learn and move on.

[bigda65]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree with what the umpire did.

I agree with bob here.

By your own admission, both teams believed there to be three outs.
Lets turn the tables a little. Lets say he touched home on the way to the dugout. Should the run now count? by rule yes. by common sense, put the runner back on third and have a "do over". It is not the technical rulebook solution, but I believe it is the right solution. Its fourth graders for crying out loud.

I am bothered by the statement that the call cost you the game or chance to tie. I assume none of your batters struck out, no fielding errors, no throwing errors, and heaven forbid any coaching errors.

Use this as a teaching tool, to always be aware of the game situation, which includes the coaches (they believed three outs too). MOVE ON

[celebur]

Originally Posted by bigda65

I assume none of your batters struck out, no fielding errors, no throwing errors, and heaven forbid any coaching errors.

In the OP, there clearly was a coaching error here.

[dketter]

I appreciate your input.. It would not have been so bad if

1. we were not called for it in the game previous
2. we were not 2 games away from a perfect season for the 2nd year in a row.

I don't think I will appeal the call, I too believe after sleeping on it to just chalk it up to a learning experience. I am going to report to the league the discrepancy in the way the umpires have called the two incidents. This is my 4th year coaching these boys and they are amazing. They have never been beat in regular season play in 4 years only 1 tie two years before and they were all pretty devastated last night. Although it was a good lesson for them to know they can't win them all, it was sad that a questionable call really made the difference in the game.

and no they don't have to use wooden bats and there are a few pitching restrictions but my point was that it is regular baseball when I said MBL rules