Who becomes coach?

[MikeStrybel]

I responded to Rich's comment that ejecting a coach for bad behavior is simple. It is not. His statement was all encompassing and reality isn't.

Do you eject a player who curses when he is injured, say a batter is popped by a fastball in the ribs and utters a curse too?

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Do you eject a player who curses when he is injured, say a batter is popped by a fastball in the ribs and utters a curse too?

No, but if I did, I wouldn't equate that to a coach charging out of a dugout to argue a judgment call.

Apples and oranges.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by yawetag

No, but if I did, I wouldn't equate that to a coach charging out of a dugout to argue a judgment call.

Apples and oranges.

Apples and tractor-trailers.

[yawetag]

And, you didn't answer my question.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

A better tact would have been to restrict the coach to the dugout. He has to be silent and then you have the opportunity to finish the game. You kicked the call and the players deserve the chance to play. Forfeiting a game because you messed up is, well, messed up.

I want to reiterate, if a coach crosses the line and you are solid on your call, dump him and file the report/call the admin.

You are, in effect, saying that when 1) There's only one coach, 2) You miss a call, and 3) The coach acts in a way that warrants an ejection, then you should simply restrict him to the dugout.

Then, you say that when 1) There's only one coach, 2) You don't miss a call, and 3) The coach acts in a way that warrants an ejection, then you should eject.

Is that correct. If so, are you serious? Is there anyone else here that subscribes to this thought?

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by yawetag

And, you didn't answer my question.

I stated, clearly, that ejecting a coach is not as simple as dumping him for bad behavior. I offered an example of a kicked call that earns his wrath.

You are, in effect, saying that when 1) There's only one coach, 2) You miss a call, and 3) The coach acts in a way that warrants an ejection, then you should simply restrict him to the dugout.

Actually, I stated that and it was reaffirmed by the UIC for Illinois. we both know that an umpire who winds up dumping a coach may have let things get out of control. We see it happen. Rookies pull the trigger because they think they have no alternative. They do. Restricting a coach to the dugout is far worse than ejecting him in many situations. He cannot say a word and his team is on guard. Dumping him, especially when it was caused by your error, usually elicits the eact opposite response. The team gets emotional and the game becomes secondary.

Then, you say that when 1) There's only one coach, 2) You don't miss a call, and 3) The coach acts in a way that warrants an ejection, then you should eject.

No, I did not write that. I specifically stated that some ejections are earned. When a coach violates a rule, you have options. Ejecting him is one. If you caused his response it may be in your best interest to toss some water on the fire rather than gas.

Is that correct. If so, are you serious? Is there anyone else here that subscribes to this thought?

Ad populum debating? Seriously Andrew, that is unnecessary. You need to take a step back and note that I specifically responded to you and Rich asserting that bad behavior warrants an ejection. That is not always the case, the NFHS rule book has it in place for a reason. They recognize that amateur umpires kick calls, coaches sometimes bring emotional baggage to the game and that even the best make mistakes that don't merit ejection.

I will give you another example. Many years ago, I worked an American Legion tourney. In the championship game, I missed a 2-2 pitch on a batter. It was a cock high fastball on the outer edge and I simply kicked it. The pitcher was walking off the mound when I called it a ball. The defensive coch was livid when the catcher shook his head in response to "Was it outside?" I could have been a prick and told the catcher to agree with my call or scold teh pitcher for walking off and showing me up. Instead, I got set for the 3-2 and the batter punched it over the right field fence to take the lead. The defensive coach was insane in the dugout, he tossed the water jug and was yelling about how I just cost him those runs. The opposing fams were on their feet shouting for me to dump him. The other team's fans were screaming at me like sailors. I watched the HC wind himself up, took off my mask, stood behind the catcher and said, "That's enough!" We had a few WWII vets in attandance and they chided him for behaving so poorly and he cooled down. They said that the umpire doesn't cost teams games. I knew better. My blown call did cost him those runs. Yes, his guy threw the next one down the pipe for the home run but it was me who caused him to have another pitch in the first place. The rest of the game was tense, I slept poorly that night and all these years later I knew that my mistakes are costly sometimes. I became a better umpire because of mistakes like this.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Dumping him, especially when it was caused by your error...

If you caused his response...

No. I know what you mean, but coaches dump themselves.

I will give you another example. Many years ago, I worked an American Legion tourney. In the championship game, I missed a 2-2 pitch on a batter. It was a cock high fastball on the outer edge and I simply kicked it. The pitcher was walking off the mound when I called it a ball. The defensive coch was livid when the catcher shook his head in response to "Was it outside?" I could have been a prick and told the catcher to agree with my call or scold teh pitcher for walking off and showing me up. Instead, I got set for the 3-2 and the batter punched it over the right field fence to take the lead. The defensive coach was insane in the dugout, he tossed the water jug and was yelling about how I just cost him those runs. The opposing fams were on their feet shouting for me to dump him. The other team's fans were screaming at me like sailors. I watched the HC wind himself up, took off my mask, stood behind the catcher and said, "That's enough!" We had a few WWII vets in attandance and they chided him for behaving so poorly and he cooled down. They said that the umpire doesn't cost teams games. I knew better. My blown call did cost him those runs. Yes, his guy threw the next one down the pipe for the home run but it was me who caused him to have another pitch in the first place. The rest of the game was tense, I slept poorly that night and all these years later I knew that my mistakes are costly sometimes.

You should have dumped him.

I became a better umpire because of mistakes like this.

I hope that means you dump the coach if he acts like that again for any reason, including reacting to one of your mistakes.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

No. I know what you mean, but coaches dump themselves.

It is important to distinguish between coaches who are out of control and need to be dealt with and ones who react to your blown call - the one that just put their team in jeopardy - and your fast trigger.

You should have dumped him.

Most spectators saw him acting like a baby in the dugout. They never saw him step out of it and heard only a limited bit of his rants. They saw me act professionally. In the end, I looked better than he did but still knew that the center fielder, pitcher and catcher saw me kick a call that cost them.

I hope that means you dump the coach if he acts like that again for any reason, including reacting to one of your mistakes.

No, actually it means that I work harder to make the proper call and respond accordingly. I defuse situations, even those I may have brought about, because as has been fodder here, coaches often don't know why we made the calls we did. I find that with emerging grey hair comes an ability to placate coaches. So far, so good.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I will give you another example. Many years ago, I worked an American Legion tourney. In the championship game, I missed a 2-2 pitch on a batter. It was a cock high fastball on the outer edge and I simply kicked it. The pitcher was walking off the mound when I called it a ball. The defensive coch was livid when the catcher shook his head in response to "Was it outside?" I could have been a prick and told the catcher to agree with my call or scold teh pitcher for walking off and showing me up. Instead, I got set for the 3-2 and the batter punched it over the right field fence to take the lead. The defensive coach was insane in the dugout, he tossed the water jug and was yelling about how I just cost him those runs.

You ****ed up hardcore. Of course he was better afterwards; you gave him a free pass. In addition, you just gave the opposing manager a free pass if he so chose to use it. Most importantly, you let them know it was okay to act the ***, and made life difficult for every umpire that came after you. People like you make my job tougher.

I will guarantee you if you had been my partner, that ***-chewing you got would not have been the last you received that day.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

They said that the umpire doesn't cost teams games. I knew better. My blown call did cost him those runs. Yes, his guy threw the next one down the pipe for the home run but it was me who caused him to have another pitch in the first place. The rest of the game was tense, I slept poorly that night and all these years later I knew that my mistakes are costly sometimes. I became a better umpire because of mistakes like this.

Umpires do not cost teams games. If one call changes the outcome, it's because that team did not execute in its 21 or more plate appearances or 21 defensive outs. That logic is from no one less important than a former manager of Team USA. If you want to believe that umpires cost games, fine, go do something else. Actually, with the amount of enabling you do, go do something else anyway.

[MikeStrybel]

Matt, your arrogance astounds. It must be pretty special to be a perfect umpire. In over thirty years of umpiring I have made plenty of mistakes and learn from all of them. Some of my mistakes cost teams. Ultimately they execute the game but I have seen plenty of bad calls end games. I am reminded of a game ending balk during an NCAA Super Regional that had this forum aghast a few years ago. If you choose to subscribe to the belief that our bad calls don't matter, so be it. Armando Galarraga probably feels different than you do. I know that Jim Joyce does.

I assure you that your attempt to give me an *** chewing post-game would not end well for you. I appreciate the levity though.

Being a perfect umpire, you shouldn't have to worry about others like me who use discretion making your life tougher. I wish you well.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Matt, your arrogance astounds. It must be pretty special to be a perfect umpire. In over thirty years of umpiring I have made plenty of mistakes and learn from all of them. Some of my mistakes cost teams. Ultimately they execute the game but I have seen plenty of bad calls end games. I am reminded of a game ending balk during an NCAA Super Regional that had this forum aghast a few years ago. If you choose to subscribe to the belief that our bad calls don't matter, so be it. Armando Galarraga probably feels different than you do. I know that Jim Joyce does.

I assure you that your attempt to give me an *** chewing post-game would not end well for you. I appreciate the levity though.

Being a perfect umpire, you shouldn't have to worry about others like me who use discretion making your life tougher. I wish you well.

Point 1: You've been umpiring longer than I have been alive, yet I have done games with far more import than yours.

Point 2: It must be nice to be so delusional to misread any criticism that anyone says. I never said "calls don't matter."

Point 3: That game-ending balk did not have this forum aghast.

[MikeStrybel]

Matt,

1. It's clear you have no idea of my resume or experience. Your need to 'brag' tells me all I need to know. Sad.

2. You wrote that umpires calls don't cost teams games. I provided an example where it did. Further, I remind you that our blown calls have consequences too.

3. Yes, it did. Do you even know which game I am discussing? Plenty of comments were made about how he should never have made that call. And no, I wasn't one of them.

To get you back on topic, some coaches deserve to be ejected. They break rules and act poorly. I addressed a blanket statement regarding the need to eject coaches who behave badly. I cited the NFHS rule for handling problem coaches. Handle them as you see fit. I haven't had the need to discipline one in a long time. Maybe that is my umpiring, maybe it is luck. I take no glee in dumping a coach or player. It's just part of the job and thankfully I don't see that many problems on the field. I wish you well.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Ultimately they execute the game but I have seen plenty of bad calls end games. I am reminded of a game ending balk during an NCAA Super Regional that had this forum aghast a few years ago. .

That NCAA game ending balk call was a good call. The pitcher had been warned earlier to come to a complete stop. That was the pitcher's boo-boo, not the umpire's.

JJ

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by JJ

That NCAA game ending balk call was a good call. The pitcher had been warned earlier to come to a complete stop. That was the pitcher's boo-boo, not the umpire's.

JJ

I agree, JJ. As stated, I was not one of those who was aghast. A number of umpires here felt he messed up. At the time, even John Bible was on the record that it was booger picking though and not the way to end that game. The next year, rolling balks were a point of emphasis at the annual meetings.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I responded to Rich's comment that ejecting a coach for bad behavior is simple. It is not. His statement was all encompassing and reality isn't.

Do you eject a player who curses when he is injured, say a batter is popped by a fastball in the ribs and utters a curse too?

Rich was speaking of consequences for a coach acting like a rat an your example, in disagreement, regards a player swearing after getting hit in the ribs.

Rich is right in his example, you are right in yours. They are not, however, related.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Rich was speaking of consequences for a coach acting like a rat an your example, in disagreement, regards a player swearing after getting hit in the ribs.

Rich is right in his example, you are right in yours. They are not, however, related.

Sure they are. Discretion is involved in determining umpire response to bad behavior. I have seen umpires eject players who cursed when injured.

If a coach curses because his pitcher just balked, I may not hear it. If he curses at me in response to a call, I probably will. I have heard the f-bomb in games and it doesn't bother me if it is internalized by a participant. i.e. bases loaded and a gapper breaks open a tie. The shortstop gets the ball in from the outfield and mutters it. I don't dump him. On the other hand, I have seen umpires eject players and coaches for saying "Jesus Christ!" or "God damn it." Eject how you see fit. I learned to differentiate between the important and trivial long ago. I haven't ejected a coach or player this year but I like to think that has more to do with my calls being correct than my tolerance.