Who becomes coach?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

It's not as simple as that. Underlevel ball, at least around here, often employs umpires and coaches that aren't stellar. They make mistakes and I have seen coaches react to them in ways that are warranted but often end in an ejection. As an example, I was sent to watch an underlevel umpire and he had a rough game. With the game tied, he missed a play at the plate. He called the runner out when the catcher tagged him with an empty glove. The coach cam out to contest the call and was promptly dumped for arguing. In our post game, the umpire explained that he doesn't tolerate coaches who question his judgement calls. Should the coach have been dumped when you bungled the call so badly?

Now, the material I posted was given directly by the UIC for Illinois. He encourages discretion and I agree. A better tact would have been to restrict the coach to the dugout. He has to be silent and then you have the opportunity to finish the game. You kicked the call and the players deserve the chance to play. Forfeiting a game because you messed up is, well, messed up.

I want to reiterate, if a coach crosses the line and you are solid on your call, dump him and file the report/call the admin. I am not advocating tolerance of bad behavior. I'm just saying that sometimes, their actions are a direct result of ours. That lesson was learned on collegiate ball fields over the past twenty years. Give your best effort and expect it in return. Most of you are veterans who know when and how to react. We do see a number of rookies and they deserve to learn that this is not always a simple decision. Most of the time it is but there are plenty of times where discretion is the better tact. Earning a reputation as quick on the trigger is difficult to live down, if possible at all. We teach Conflict Resolution in our clinics in Illinois. We are trained to lower our voices, adopt a non threatening body position, listen and ask questions. Yes, the person asking is in charge of the dialogue. We use those interrogatives to deflect the situation and maintain control. I can't think of a better way to control a coach than restricting him to a dugout where all can see that he has to behave. Most likely he and his AD will appreciate the discretion.

Just out of curiosity ... have you ever had a question from a coach where you knew he was right and you were wrong? Your advice of being lenient when you've kicked a call is frankly asinine ... if you knew you kicked it, you wouldn't have called it that way.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by yawetag

No, but if I did, I wouldn't equate that to a coach charging out of a dugout to argue a judgment call.

Apples and oranges.

Apples and tractor-trailers.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Eject if you want. Restrict if you want. Tim C. gave the best advice so far, make your calls and let the powers that be decide what happens. Around here, a coach who is restricted to the dugout will be appreciative for not getting called on the carpet. I haven't had the need to restrict a coach to the dugout or eject one in a long time. Colleagues who have relate that those dumped seem to harbor season long grudges. That is baggage most don't want. The Illinois UIC prefers it that way too.

You seem to be one of those people who, when confronted with 99 people telling you the sky is blue, insist the sky is grey because that's what they initially said, and don't bother to actually look at the sky. 99 people tell you that what you are espousing is bad umpiring (and not just on this thread), yet in your mind it's the 99 that are insane. And you call US arrogant? Yeah, ok.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You seem to be one of those people who, when confronted with 99 people telling you the sky is blue, insist the sky is grey because that's what they initially said, and don't bother to actually look at the sky. 99 people tell you that what you are espousing is bad umpiring (and not just on this thread), yet in your mind it's the 99 that are insane. And you call US arrogant? Yeah, ok.

I still don't get why I should be worried about a coach harboring a grudge. THEY'RE the ones who crossed the line and got run, after all. Why are we catering to them anyway?

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You seem to be one of those people who, when confronted with 99 people telling you the sky is blue, insist the sky is grey because that's what they initially said, and don't bother to actually look at the sky. 99 people tell you that what you are espousing is bad umpiring (and not just on this thread), yet in your mind it's the 99 that are insane. And you call US arrogant? Yeah, ok.

I really wish you wouldn't lie. The act diminishes your integrity. Please show me where I said you are arrogant?

Read post #60 and see how I admit that I probably should have been more assertive towards that coach. Further, I admitted that I kicked a call and it gnawed at me while some here pretend that they have never. Sad.

It's ironic that posts regarding preventive officiating and talking to players to get them to change things that will require tough calls are not considered an exhibition of "leniency". "Catch, tell you pitcher not to do that." "Skipper, tell 22 to watch his mouth." "I don't care about Phiten or PowerBalance necklaces." (Fed rules) are just such examples. Tolerance of a rule violation in one place but not another is acceptable to many umpires here. Why the duplicity, Mike?

Please stop lying.

"I have looked back on situations and thought that I could have handled a few differently and probably better."- Jim Evans

I guess JE is wrong too, huh?

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Just out of curiosity ... have you ever had a question from a coach where you knew he was right and you were wrong? Your advice of being lenient when you've kicked a call is frankly asinine ... if you knew you kicked it, you wouldn't have called it that way.

You change strike calls after making them? (sigh and roll eyes)

Have I ever had a question made by a coach where he was correct and I wasn't? Sure. Plenty of major league umpires can say the same thing. That is why instant replay and umpire conferences are now in play. Umpires used to be able to swear at coaches and argue in ways that were pretty comical. That era has passed and we are expected to evolve. An aggressive display by an umpire in NCAA ball will probably get your schedule pulled or at least diminished. You may even make it to the web bulletins and that's not a good thing. In pro ball they have adopted the tact of having two umpires be present for heated exchanges in an effort to be more careful. Yes, some of those involve exchanges with umpires who blew calls. Ask Jim Joyce if he ever kicked a call. He was big enough to admit he did and how he regrets it.

If you have no room for discretion in your umpiring then I pity the athletes you serve. I remind you that Fed rules allow for discretion or leniency as you put it. Deal with them instead of whining here.

It must be incredible to be a perfect umpire, since you've never kicked a call. (sigh and roll eyes)

If your intent is to malign me by lying and misrepresentation, it won't work. Move along.

"I have looked back on situations and thought that I could have handled a few differently and probably better."- Jim Evans

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I really wish you wouldn't lie. The act diminishes your integrity. Please show me where I said you are arrogant?

Pot, meet kettle. Post 48. Speaking of diminished integrity.

Read post #60 and see how I admit that I probably should have been more assertive towards that coach. Further, I admitted that I kicked a call and it gnawed at me while some here pretend that they have never. Sad.

If you're making such calls routinely, slow down. My point was on a banger, the umpire is making the call he thinks is correct. You want the umpire to now base his treatment of the now irate coach on whether he kicked the call or not. That's asinine. Maybe he did kick it... but surely, unless he's truly green and still making calls too fast, he doesn't THINK he kicked it.

It's ironic that posts regarding preventive officiating and talking to players to get them to change things that will require tough calls are not considered an exhibition of "leniency". "Catch, tell you pitcher not to do that." "Skipper, tell 22 to watch his mouth." "I don't care about Phiten or PowerBalance necklaces." (Fed rules) are just such examples. Tolerance of a rule violation in one place but not another is acceptable to many umpires here. Why the duplicity, Mike?

Duplicity? Me? Show me a post where I said any of these things. I don't accept rules violations unless I've been told to issue warnings in a particular league or age group differently than the book says. (This actually happened this year... rang up a strike on a 10U who wouldn't get in the box, and was told to be a little more lenient next time).

Please stop lying.

Please apologize or tell me where I lied.

"I have looked back on situations and thought that I could have handled a few differently and probably better."- Jim Evans

I guess JE is wrong too, huh?

No ... but this proves you completely missed my point - which was not that we never kick calls, but that we never THINK we kicked a call, at least right then in the heat of the moment - so basing your actions toward a coach who is trying to eject himself on whether you think you kicked it or not is just dumb.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Pot, meet kettle. Post 48. Speaking of diminished integrity.

Now that was funny. I told Matt that he was arrogant because he told me he would give me an *** chewing for not being a perfect umpire. Thank you for making the case that I did not call you or the rest of the board (remember, you wrote 'US'?) arrogant. Your lie again unravels.

If you're making such calls routinely, slow down. My point was on a banger, the umpire is making the call he thinks is correct. You want the umpire to now base his treatment of the now irate coach on whether he kicked the call or not. That's asinine. Maybe he did kick it... but surely, unless he's truly green and still making calls too fast, he doesn't THINK he kicked it.

Wow. You change my missed strike call to a banger? I'm sorry but I am not clairvoyant. If you intend to change the topic please alert the board.

Jim Evans spends an inordinate amount of time preaching that the biggest problem umpires have is rushing the call before the information processes. He has admitted to making mistakes involving as much. Are you suggesting that he is wrong to qualify his reaction to an irate coach too?

Duplicity? Me? Show me a post where I said any of these things. I don't accept rules violations unless I've been told to issue warnings in a particular league or age group differently than the book says. (This actually happened this year... rang up a strike on a 10U who wouldn't get in the box, and was told to be a little more lenient next time).

So, you didn't involve yourself in any preventive umpire discussions here? (roll eyes)

Maybe this is part of the problem, I don't work 10U ball. Enjoy, those kids are fun to watch.

As stated, the NFHS has a policy in effect that allows umpires to exercise discretion. Also stated, if you don't like it, too bad. Take it up with them. I merely reported the rule.

Please apologize or tell me where I lied.

I already did. You claimed that 99 people told me that I am wrong. You claimed that I said that all of you are arrogant (don't use 'us' and you won't look silly). You claimed that my advocacy of discretion is asinine and I showed you the rule that allows for it. Are those enough examples of your misrepresentation of the truth?

No ... but this proves you completely missed my point - which was not that we never kick calls, but that we never THINK we kicked a call, at least right then in the heat of the moment - so basing your actions toward a coach who is trying to eject himself on whether you think you kicked it or not is just dumb.

That's bull. I knew immediately that I missed that strike. I have had far too many post games with guys who admit the same thing. Before conferences were allowed, I can remember partners who called outs only to see the ball on the ground and the inability to change their call. I have seen foul balls called fair only to hear my partner claim that he wasn't sure because a player straightlined him at the last instant.

Finally, I provided a quote from Jim Evans that illustrates that we make mistakes and they have consequences. Yes, a coach can cross the line and the rules allow for us to handle it. I have watched really good umpires toss away careers because they didn't want to be big-leagued by a coach, even though they blundered. They may have won the battle but lost the war. It makes little sense to insist you should be a hardass when your error caused the coach to react.

[MikeStrybel]

This is getting old. If you are working Fed ball, you have an option to ejecting. You don't hae to use it. In some other leagues, they have warnings and policies to assist you. Do what you must. Be safe and enjoy your game.

I'm done trying to convince the board that the rule exists and discretion is a valuable part of umpiring. Call the NFHS and complain to them.

[MD Longhorn]

Ignore.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Now that was funny. I told Matt that he was arrogant because he told me he would give me an *** chewing for not being a perfect umpire. Thank you for making the case that I did not call you or the rest of the board (remember, you wrote 'US'?) arrogant. Your lie again unravels.

Interesting how you insist someone else is lying in the same post that you do actually lie (actually, the second; I let the first one go.)

Project much?

[bob jenkins]

WTF does any of the last 40 or so posts have to do with the OP? All of us are capable of reading the posts and deciding whether someone is "lying" (or lying about someone else lying) and, if so, how to deal with it.

I don't really GAF whether you put someone on ignore or just decide to read past the posts but this back and forth (and back and forth and back and forth) just degrades all of you.