Who becomes coach?

[UmpJM]

DG,

The only problem I have with 10-2-3g is because 4-4-1 enumerates the FED defined conditions for a forfeit - and no adult coaches ain't one of 'em.

So, forfeits ARE covered in the rules, but no available adult coaches ISN'T, so 10-2-3g has definitely got your back there.

If that's the practice in your area, I think that's exactly what you should do.

I have no idea what the "custom and practice" is around here. Generally, it seems that each conference establishes it's own "game-ending procedures" and the umpire determines whether the game continues or is halted. Whether it is a win/loss, forfeit, or suspended is not my concern.

There is no place I know of that I can go "look up" the IHSA position on any of the NFHS "by state adoption" rules, but everyone seems to agree on what they are. Mildly frustrating to me.

JM

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

DG,

The only problem I have with 10-2-3g is because 4-4-1 enumerates the FED defined conditions for a forfeit - and no adult coaches ain't one of 'em.

So, forfeits ARE covered in the rules, but no available adult coaches ISN'T, so 10-2-3g has definitely got your back there.

If that's the practice in your area, I think that's exactly what you should do.

I have no idea what the "custom and practice" is around here. Generally, it seems that each conference establishes it's own "game-ending procedures" and the umpire determines whether the game continues or is halted. Whether it is a win/loss, forfeit, or suspended is not my concern.

There is no place I know of that I can go "look up" the IHSA position on any of the NFHS "by state adoption" rules, but everyone seems to agree on what they are. Mildly frustrating to me.

JM

I just saw this and did some digging. Here is what I was told:

In Illinois, head coaches and assistant coaches, must be (1) faculty members who have a valid teaching certificate, (2) any non-faculty member who has a valid teaching certificate, or (3) any non-certified person older than 19 year who has completed a coach training education program as approved by the IHSA (ex. ASEP). If the head coach and all assistant coaches are ejected (or otherwise not present) any adult who is present and is a certified faculty member of that school and agrees to take on the responsibility of the welfare of all players may serve in the place of the ejected coach(es). Parents of players (who do not fall within the previously stated criteria) cannot assume that responsibility of acting as the coach, in which case the game must be forfeited. Suspend it and the conference will perform the penalty, if they have not adopted something else.

You will not find that information in the rule book. It this is located somewhere in the depths of the IHSA bylaws which you can find on the IHSA website.

The solution to this would be to restrict the HC or AC to the dugout for the remainder of the game. Many underlevel contests only have one coach, so this comes into play more often. Restricting coaches is far more prevalent at that level. I believe that has already been stated but it is offered in case a member chooses not to backread.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

The solution to this would be to restrict the HC or AC to the dugout for the remainder of the game. Many underlevel contests only have one coach, so this comes into play more often. Restricting coaches is far more prevalent at that level. I believe that has already been stated but it is offered in case a member chooses not to backread.

Which is fine if the ejection wasn't based on his behavior. I couldn't care how many coaches are on the bench; if a HC wants to act like a rat, he's not sitting on the bench the rest of the game.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by yawetag

Which is fine if the ejection wasn't based on his behavior. I couldn't care how many coaches are on the bench; if a HC wants to act like a rat, he's not sitting on the bench the rest of the game.

Exactly. Actions have consequences. If you're the only coach, don't get ejected -- simple as that.

[MikeStrybel]

It's not as simple as that. Underlevel ball, at least around here, often employs umpires and coaches that aren't stellar. They make mistakes and I have seen coaches react to them in ways that are warranted but often end in an ejection. As an example, I was sent to watch an underlevel umpire and he had a rough game. With the game tied, he missed a play at the plate. He called the runner out when the catcher tagged him with an empty glove. The coach cam out to contest the call and was promptly dumped for arguing. In our post game, the umpire explained that he doesn't tolerate coaches who question his judgement calls. Should the coach have been dumped when you bungled the call so badly?

Now, the material I posted was given directly by the UIC for Illinois. He encourages discretion and I agree. A better tact would have been to restrict the coach to the dugout. He has to be silent and then you have the opportunity to finish the game. You kicked the call and the players deserve the chance to play. Forfeiting a game because you messed up is, well, messed up.

I want to reiterate, if a coach crosses the line and you are solid on your call, dump him and file the report/call the admin. I am not advocating tolerance of bad behavior. I'm just saying that sometimes, their actions are a direct result of ours. That lesson was learned on collegiate ball fields over the past twenty years. Give your best effort and expect it in return. Most of you are veterans who know when and how to react. We do see a number of rookies and they deserve to learn that this is not always a simple decision. Most of the time it is but there are plenty of times where discretion is the better tact. Earning a reputation as quick on the trigger is difficult to live down, if possible at all. We teach Conflict Resolution in our clinics in Illinois. We are trained to lower our voices, adopt a non threatening body position, listen and ask questions. Yes, the person asking is in charge of the dialogue. We use those interrogatives to deflect the situation and maintain control. I can't think of a better way to control a coach than restricting him to a dugout where all can see that he has to behave. Most likely he and his AD will appreciate the discretion.

[yawetag]

Mike, you're saying that you should restrict a coach when you kick a call, but eject them when you know the call is right? You can't be serious.

I'll stand by my previous comment. If the coach's actions warrant an ejection, I find it difficult to believe that he's going to sit on his bench and keep his mouth shut.

Yes, if his restriction is due to something beyond his control (such as the actions of an assistant coach), he's probably going to behave on the bench. But if he's already mad enough at you for a call, whether you're right or wrong, he's not going to turn into a choir boy the second you tell him he's going to sit on his bench and be quiet.

YMMV.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by yawetag

But if he's already mad enough at you for a call, whether you're right or wrong, he's not going to turn into a choir boy the second you tell him he's going to sit on his bench and be quiet.

In Ohio he might, because getting ejected will cost him $100 fine plus a $50 online coaching ethics course. Restriction is free.

From what I've heard, ejections are way down in Ohio this year.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Forfeiting a game because you messed up is, well, messed up.

Yes, but that's not what happened.

[MikeStrybel]

I responded to Rich's comment that ejecting a coach for bad behavior is simple. It is not. His statement was all encompassing and reality isn't.

Do you eject a player who curses when he is injured, say a batter is popped by a fastball in the ribs and utters a curse too?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

It's not as simple as that. Underlevel ball, at least around here, often employs umpires and coaches that aren't stellar. They make mistakes and I have seen coaches react to them in ways that are warranted but often end in an ejection. As an example, I was sent to watch an underlevel umpire and he had a rough game. With the game tied, he missed a play at the plate. He called the runner out when the catcher tagged him with an empty glove. The coach cam out to contest the call and was promptly dumped for arguing. In our post game, the umpire explained that he doesn't tolerate coaches who question his judgement calls. Should the coach have been dumped when you bungled the call so badly?

Now, the material I posted was given directly by the UIC for Illinois. He encourages discretion and I agree. A better tact would have been to restrict the coach to the dugout. He has to be silent and then you have the opportunity to finish the game. You kicked the call and the players deserve the chance to play. Forfeiting a game because you messed up is, well, messed up.

I want to reiterate, if a coach crosses the line and you are solid on your call, dump him and file the report/call the admin. I am not advocating tolerance of bad behavior. I'm just saying that sometimes, their actions are a direct result of ours. That lesson was learned on collegiate ball fields over the past twenty years. Give your best effort and expect it in return. Most of you are veterans who know when and how to react. We do see a number of rookies and they deserve to learn that this is not always a simple decision. Most of the time it is but there are plenty of times where discretion is the better tact. Earning a reputation as quick on the trigger is difficult to live down, if possible at all. We teach Conflict Resolution in our clinics in Illinois. We are trained to lower our voices, adopt a non threatening body position, listen and ask questions. Yes, the person asking is in charge of the dialogue. We use those interrogatives to deflect the situation and maintain control. I can't think of a better way to control a coach than restricting him to a dugout where all can see that he has to behave. Most likely he and his AD will appreciate the discretion.

Just out of curiosity ... have you ever had a question from a coach where you knew he was right and you were wrong? Your advice of being lenient when you've kicked a call is frankly asinine ... if you knew you kicked it, you wouldn't have called it that way.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Just out of curiosity ... have you ever had a question from a coach where you knew he was right and you were wrong? Your advice of being lenient when you've kicked a call is frankly asinine ... if you knew you kicked it, you wouldn't have called it that way.

You change strike calls after making them? (sigh and roll eyes)

Have I ever had a question made by a coach where he was correct and I wasn't? Sure. Plenty of major league umpires can say the same thing. That is why instant replay and umpire conferences are now in play. Umpires used to be able to swear at coaches and argue in ways that were pretty comical. That era has passed and we are expected to evolve. An aggressive display by an umpire in NCAA ball will probably get your schedule pulled or at least diminished. You may even make it to the web bulletins and that's not a good thing. In pro ball they have adopted the tact of having two umpires be present for heated exchanges in an effort to be more careful. Yes, some of those involve exchanges with umpires who blew calls. Ask Jim Joyce if he ever kicked a call. He was big enough to admit he did and how he regrets it.

If you have no room for discretion in your umpiring then I pity the athletes you serve. I remind you that Fed rules allow for discretion or leniency as you put it. Deal with them instead of whining here.

It must be incredible to be a perfect umpire, since you've never kicked a call. (sigh and roll eyes)

If your intent is to malign me by lying and misrepresentation, it won't work. Move along.

"I have looked back on situations and thought that I could have handled a few differently and probably better."- Jim Evans