Sliding Question

[Spence]

Originally Posted by mbyron

At the pro level, you could pull it off, since there's no FPSR.

The fielder is usually trying to tag the runner but stay out of his way: if he slides toward the fielder in that situation, you'd very probably have an FPSR violation and an easy DP call. For HS ball I'd consider this a very low probability play for the offense.

That's not how I'm reading your original play.

I'm picturing a fielder with the ball in his glove coming at the oncoming runner to try to tag him and throw to F3 for the DP. He's in the baseline as he's running at the runner.

Are you saying the runner's only options are to be tagged or try to avoid the tag? Sliding is not an option? I always took the FPSR to be when the fielder is actually touching the bag. I guess I'm having trouble distinguishing between the runner being allowed to slide into the fielder if the fielder is in front of the bag in the baseline vs sliding into the same fielder in the same baseline who is not "in front of the bag."

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Spence

I'm picturing a fielder with the ball in his glove coming at the oncoming runner to try to tag him and throw to F3 for the DP. He's in the baseline as he's running at the runner.

Are you saying the runner's only options are to be tagged or try to avoid the tag? Sliding is not an option? I always took the FPSR to be when the fielder is actually touching the bag. I guess I'm having trouble distinguishing between the runner being allowed to slide into the fielder if the fielder is in front of the bag in the baseline vs sliding into the same fielder in the same baseline who is not "in front of the bag."

The runner sliding at the bag is trying to get to the bag. The fielder sometimes is there and contact occurs and the rules allow for that contact as long as not malicious. A runner sliding anywhere else is also legal however if he does it somewhere that interferes with a fielder making a play, I am calling him out and getting the double if possible. (Fed)

[MrUmpire]

Most times a fielder with the ball attempting a tag of R1 40' from second is tagging high and then throwing to first. I have no problem wth R1 sliding legally to avoid that tag. Nothing is the rules says he has to attain the bag as a result of his slide. If the fielder is dumb enough to be in the middle of the baseline, he'll probably get taken out, legally.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Most times a fielder with the ball attempting a tag of R1 40' from second is tagging high and then throwing to first. I have no problem wth R1 sliding legally to avoid that tag. Nothing is the rules says he has to attain the bag as a result of his slide. If the fielder is dumb enough to be in the middle of the baseline, he'll probably get taken out, legally.

That's exactly my position.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

So as long as the runner slides on the ground in a straight line toward the base and doesn't go past the base he's legal.

So you really could take out the fielder 'cause you won't go past the base.

Yes, provided no raised leg, perfectly legal.

Originally Posted by mbyron

The primary principle of sliding is: a slide is never required by rule, but if a runner slides, it must be legal. No rule prohibits "taking out" a fielder just as such: we have INT for a "take out" only when the slide or contact is otherwise illegal.

A fielder with the ball trying for a tag and a double play is protected from interference, but has no "special" protection: we are not absolved from judging whether the contact was legal by the fact that there's a double play at stake. There's no "automatic" interference here on that account.

The slide described is legal, even though it has no chance of reaching the base. As I said, the runner might simply have been avoiding the tag. I see nothing in the description that violates the slide or FPSR rules. If the contact is legal, then we play on.

Very well stated.

Originally Posted by jicecone

The runner sliding at the bag is trying to get to the bag. The fielder sometimes is there and contact occurs and the rules allow for that contact as long as not malicious. A runner sliding anywhere else is also legal however if he does it somewhere that interferes with a fielder making a play, I am calling him out and getting the double if possible. (Fed)

In the NABA league I umpire, we use the NCAA FPSR, and I've had to call it twice this season (since 2/26), once as PU and once as BU:

As PU, R1 slid straight in to the base, but late, and plowed into fielder past the base. Easy INT call.

As the BU, R1 slid to his right, directly at F6 coming across the bag, in an obvious take-out attempt.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

...
In the NABA league I umpire, we use the NCAA FPSR, and I've had to call it twice this season (since 2/26), once as PU and once as BU:

As PU, R1 slid straight in to the base, but late, and plowed into fielder past the base. Easy INT call.

....

Steve,

Where the heck you been hiding?

So, I take it you're using LAST year's NCAA FPSR rule????

Because this year, the one I "clipped" wouldn't be an FPSR violation in NCAA.

Yes, I'm sure.

JM

P.S. 206? Way to go, dude!

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

So, I take it you're using LAST year's NCAA FPSR rule????

Because this year, the one I "clipped" wouldn't be an FPSR violation in NCAA.

There were no changes to the NCAA FPSR this cycle (2011-2012).

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

There were no changes to the NCAA FPSR this cycle (2011-2012).

dash,

I stand corrected. When did they change it?

JM

[dash_riprock]

Went to the Hub and found it in the 2007 pre-season guide. FPSR was changed to allow the runner to slide past the base. There were some other tweaks. I don't think it has changed since.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Steve,

Where the heck you been hiding?

So, I take it you're using LAST year's NCAA FPSR rule????

Because this year, the one I "clipped" wouldn't be an FPSR violation in NCAA.

Yes, I'm sure.

JM

P.S. 206? Way to go, dude!

See above post!

Hey John, how the heck are ya?

Thanks, I worked hard to lose the weight.

I have been very busy lately. I umpire four 9-inning top-level adult games per weekend, and I have been working on my MBA with Professional Golf Management specialization since December, and will have my Masters in July or August of next year.

It's rough playing so much golf.

The league in which I work plays 3 ten-week seasons per year, plus playoffs and championship games for each season, in 11 divisions. I have been working 2 Saturday and 2 Sunday since September 2009.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Yes, provided no raised leg, perfectly legal.

Very well stated.

In the NABA league I umpire, we use the NCAA FPSR, and I've had to call it twice this season (since 2/26), once as PU and once as BU:

As PU, R1 slid straight in to the base, but late, and plowed into fielder past the base. Easy INT call.

As the BU, R1 slid to his right, directly at F6 coming across the bag, in an obvious take-out attempt.

ONE small problem on the first (PU) one.

In NCAA rules you can slide through the base. The fielder is not protected behind the base.

See the diagram on page 96 of the current NCAA rules book, available as a pdf on line at

NCAA Publications - 2011-2012 Baseball Rules (2 Year Publication)

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

ONE small problem on the first (PU) one.

In NCAA rules you can slide through the base. The fielder is not protected behind the base.

See the diagram on page 96 of the current NCAA rules book, available as a pdf on line at

NCAA Publications - 2011-2012 Baseball Rules (2 Year Publication)

I was unaware of the rule change in NCAA. In the league I work, we use the rule from 2006 (not my rules), and the league has not seen fit to update to any new version.

Here is how the rule reads in its entirety (local No Collision Rule omitted):

11.16 FORCE-PLAY SLIDE RULE
Starting in the Spring 2006 SDABL season the NCAA “Force-Play Slide Rule” will go into effect. The purpose of this rule, as with the SDABL No Collision Rule below, is to prevent injury with respect to those plays that may encourage the “taking out” of a
defensive player during a force and/or double-play situation. Basically, this rule dictates that the runner must slide directly into any base for the just mentioned situations. Simply being able to get just a hand on the base while a “body’s length away” for the purpose of breaking up a double-play will no longer be allowed. The rule in its entirety is as follows:

a. On any force play, the runner must slide on the ground and in a direct line between the two bases.

Exception --- A runner need not slide directly into a base as along as the runner slides or runs (while standing) in a direction away from the fielder to avoid making contact or altering the play/throw of the fielder.
1) “On the ground” means either a head-first slide or a slide with one leg and buttock on the ground.
2) “Directly into a base” means the runner’s entire body (feet, legs, trunk and arms) must stay in a straight line between the bases.

NOTE 1: If a runner goes into a base standing up and does not make contact or alter the play of the defensive player, interference shall not be called.

b. Contact with a fielder is legal and interference shall not be called if the runner:

1) Makes a legal slide directly to the base, or
2) Is on the ground at the time of contact and the fielder moves directly down the line between the two bases to attempt a play.
3) Makes a legal slide and makes contact with a defensive player who is on or over, but not beyond, the base.

NOTE 2: When the base runner slides beyond the base, but does not (1) make contact with or (2) alter the play of the defensive player, interference shall not be called.

c. Actions by a runner are illegal and interference shall be called if:

1) The runner slides or runs out of the base line in the direction of the fielder;
2) The runner uses a rolling, cross-body or pop-up slide and either makes contact with or alters the play of a fielder;
3) The runner’s raised leg makes contact higher than the fielder’s knee when in a standing position;
4) The runner goes beyond the base and either makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder;

NOTE 3: ‘Beyond the base” means any part of the offensive player’s body makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder beyond the base.

5) The runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg;
6) The runner illegally slides toward or contacts the fielder even if the fielder makes no attempt to throw to complete a play.

PENALTY for 1 -6 in (c) above:
1) With less than two outs, the batter-runner, as well as the interfering runner, shall be declared out and no other runners are allowed to advance or score. (Ball becomes dead).
2) With two outs, the interfering runner shall be declared out and no other runner(s) allowed to advance or score.
3) If the runner’s slide or collision is flagrant, the runner shall be ejected from the game.

NOTE 4: If the bases are loaded with no outs, a double-play attempt is made, and interference is called, all other runners must return to the bases the occupied at the time of the pitch.

NOTE 5: On a force play, with a two-man umpiring system, if the plate umpire does not have a potential play at the plate, he should move toward the base to observe the runner going into second or third base. In this situation, the base umpire must
follow the throw and may not see the true effect of the lead runner’s actions.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I was unaware of the rule change in NCAA. In the league I work, we use the rule from 2006 (not my rules), and the league has not seen fit to update to any new version.

Here is how the rule reads in its entirety (local No Collision Rule omitted):

11.16 FORCE-PLAY SLIDE RULE
Starting in the Spring 2006 SDABL season the NCAA “Force-Play Slide Rule” will go into effect. The purpose of this rule, as with the SDABL No Collision Rule below, is to prevent injury with respect to those plays that may encourage the “taking out” of a
defensive player during a force and/or double-play situation. Basically, this rule dictates that the runner must slide directly into any base for the just mentioned situations. Simply being able to get just a hand on the base while a “body’s length away” for the purpose of breaking up a double-play will no longer be allowed. The rule in its entirety is as follows:

a. On any force play, the runner must slide on the ground and in a direct line between the two bases.

Exception --- A runner need not slide directly into a base as along as the runner slides or runs (while standing) in a direction away from the fielder to avoid making contact or altering the play/throw of the fielder.
1) “On the ground” means either a head-first slide or a slide with one leg and buttock on the ground.
2) “Directly into a base” means the runner’s entire body (feet, legs, trunk and arms) must stay in a straight line between the bases.

NOTE 1: If a runner goes into a base standing up and does not make contact or alter the play of the defensive player, interference shall not be called.

b. Contact with a fielder is legal and interference shall not be called if the runner:

1) Makes a legal slide directly to the base, or
2) Is on the ground at the time of contact and the fielder moves directly down the line between the two bases to attempt a play.
3) Makes a legal slide and makes contact with a defensive player who is on or over, but not beyond, the base.

NOTE 2: When the base runner slides beyond the base, but does not (1) make contact with or (2) alter the play of the defensive player, interference shall not be called.

c. Actions by a runner are illegal and interference shall be called if:

1) The runner slides or runs out of the base line in the direction of the fielder;
2) The runner uses a rolling, cross-body or pop-up slide and either makes contact with or alters the play of a fielder;
3) The runner’s raised leg makes contact higher than the fielder’s knee when in a standing position;
4) The runner goes beyond the base and either makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder;

NOTE 3: ‘Beyond the base” means any part of the offensive player’s body makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder beyond the base.

5) The runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg;
6) The runner illegally slides toward or contacts the fielder even if the fielder makes no attempt to throw to complete a play.

PENALTY for 1 -6 in (c) above:
1) With less than two outs, the batter-runner, as well as the interfering runner, shall be declared out and no other runners are allowed to advance or score. (Ball becomes dead).
2) With two outs, the interfering runner shall be declared out and no other runner(s) allowed to advance or score.
3) If the runner’s slide or collision is flagrant, the runner shall be ejected from the game.

NOTE 4: If the bases are loaded with no outs, a double-play attempt is made, and interference is called, all other runners must return to the bases the occupied at the time of the pitch.

NOTE 5: On a force play, with a two-man umpiring system, if the plate umpire does not have a potential play at the plate, he should move toward the base to observe the runner going into second or third base. In this situation, the base umpire must
follow the throw and may not see the true effect of the lead runner’s actions.

Hey Steve - nice job on the weight loss. Now I have to catch up with you.

I think I'd be obnoxious and ask the league if tey want the NCAA rule or the one in their book - choose one.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Hey Steve - nice job on the weight loss. Now I have to catch up with you.

I think I'd be obnoxious and ask the league if tey want the NCAA rule or the one in their book - choose one.

Thanks Rich!

The reasoning and rationale the league uses for such strict enforcement of the rule as written, as well as the No Collision Rule, is that these players aren't getting paid to play baseball and have to go to work Monday morning. Not only do they not get paid to play, they actually have to pay to play, so safety is a bigger concern than scoring a run or making a base.

Here is the additional No Collision Rule as written, which along with the old FPSR, is the rule used in the league:

11.17 NO COLLISION RULE

11.17.1 Definition:

A runner attempting to acquire a base/home MUST AVOID ANY DELIBERATE STAND-UP COLLISIONS WITH THE DEFENSIVE PLAYER FOR THE PURPOSE OF “JARRING” THE BALL LOOSE IF THAT PLAYER HAS POSSESSION OF THE BALL, OR “FORECEFULLY MOVING” THE DEFENSIVE PLAYER OUT OF THE WAY IF HE IS ABOUT TO RECEIVE THE THROWN BALL, OR THE INTENT TO INJURE (based on umpire judgment.). This rule also applies to DEFENSIVE PLAYERS, as seen below.

Note: Since no umpire can read a player’s mind in order to determine actual intent, “deliberate” must also be based on umpire judgment. And while any arguments presented to the umpire may in fact be sincere and well-intended, any aggressive “Q & A” directed towards the umpire may be met with a bit of skepticism. This is not an easy call to make, as history has shown.

11.17.2 Intent Of Rule:

To prevent “stand up” collisions between a runner and defensive player for the purpose of preventing injury. While it does apply to any plays at any base, its main focus has been to address plays at home between the runner and catcher. Basically, the intent of this rule is to eliminate the “Pete Rose/Ray Fosse” type of baseball played by professionals---who can obviously “afford” in the real sense of the word to play it this way. Recreational players, however, need to remain healthy so they can go to work on Monday morning.

11.17.3 Consequences for violating this rule:

1) The ball will become immediately dead.
2) No other runners on base will be allowed to advance any further than their present positions when the collision occurs. (Umpire judgment).
3) The violating runner will be called “Out” and, if the play happens at home, not be allowed to score if he has in fact succeeded in doing so.