Sliding Question

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Spence

Simple. He's trying to break up a double play.

I didn't know if FED had any rules about the slide having to be "at" or "near" the base.

And that is what the rule was put in for. Breaking up a double play usually means take out the fielder or disrupt his throw. FPSR was put in to eliminate and/or minimize contact between the runner and fielder. It allows contact only if the fielder ends up in front of the bag and the runner is executing a legal slide or attempting to avoid contact. Incidental contact.

I agree with Mbyron, "my bar for MC is going to be a lot lower that far from the base, though." The manner in which the runner is trying to break up the double play 45 ft from the bag, better pretty much conform to the same FPSR regulations allowed at the bag. .

Taking out the fielder this far from the bag and just before reaching the bag are two different scenarios. I find very hard to believe that the runner is trying to reach the base on a direct slide into the bag, 45 feet away. Sorry Rich

[Spence]

Originally Posted by jicecone

And that is what the rule was put in for. Breaking up a double play usually means take out the fielder or disrupt his throw. FPSR was put in to eliminate and/or minimize contact between the runner and fielder. It allows contact only if the fielder ends up in front of the bag and the runner is executing a legal slide or attempting to avoid contact. Incidental contact.

I agree with Mbyron, "my bar for MC is going to be a lot lower that far from the base, though." The manner in which the runner is trying to break up the double play 45 ft from the bag, better pretty much conform to the same FPSR regulations allowed at the bag. .

Taking out the fielder this far from the bag and just before reaching the bag are two different scenarios. I find very hard to believe that the runner is trying to reach the base on a direct slide into the bag, 45 feet away. Sorry Rich

I'm not trying to be dense but I'm not sure if you're saying this slide is legal or not.

Do the rules forbid sliding if the runner is not within X feet of the base? If the runner executes a legal slide ie leg not raised - straight - etc and makes contact with the defender is it legal?

I ask because I read an SI article about Orioles manager Buck Showalter and his player mentioned Buck teaching them this. I was wondering if FED allowed it.

[mbyron]

The primary principle of sliding is: a slide is never required by rule, but if a runner slides, it must be legal. No rule prohibits "taking out" a fielder just as such: we have INT for a "take out" only when the slide or contact is otherwise illegal.

A fielder with the ball trying for a tag and a double play is protected from interference, but has no "special" protection: we are not absolved from judging whether the contact was legal by the fact that there's a double play at stake. There's no "automatic" interference here on that account.

The slide described is legal, even though it has no chance of reaching the base. As I said, the runner might simply have been avoiding the tag. I see nothing in the description that violates the slide or FPSR rules. If the contact is legal, then we play on.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Spence

I ask because I read an SI article about Orioles manager Buck Showalter and his player mentioned Buck teaching them this. I was wondering if FED allowed it.

At the pro level, you could pull it off, since there's no FPSR.

The fielder is usually trying to tag the runner but stay out of his way: if he slides toward the fielder in that situation, you'd very probably have an FPSR violation and an easy DP call. For HS ball I'd consider this a very low probability play for the offense.

That's not how I'm reading your original play.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by mbyron

At the pro level, you could pull it off, since there's no FPSR.

The fielder is usually trying to tag the runner but stay out of his way: if he slides toward the fielder in that situation, you'd very probably have an FPSR violation and an easy DP call. For HS ball I'd consider this a very low probability play for the offense.

That's not how I'm reading your original play.

I'm picturing a fielder with the ball in his glove coming at the oncoming runner to try to tag him and throw to F3 for the DP. He's in the baseline as he's running at the runner.

Are you saying the runner's only options are to be tagged or try to avoid the tag? Sliding is not an option? I always took the FPSR to be when the fielder is actually touching the bag. I guess I'm having trouble distinguishing between the runner being allowed to slide into the fielder if the fielder is in front of the bag in the baseline vs sliding into the same fielder in the same baseline who is not "in front of the bag."

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Spence

I'm picturing a fielder with the ball in his glove coming at the oncoming runner to try to tag him and throw to F3 for the DP. He's in the baseline as he's running at the runner.

Are you saying the runner's only options are to be tagged or try to avoid the tag? Sliding is not an option? I always took the FPSR to be when the fielder is actually touching the bag. I guess I'm having trouble distinguishing between the runner being allowed to slide into the fielder if the fielder is in front of the bag in the baseline vs sliding into the same fielder in the same baseline who is not "in front of the bag."

The runner sliding at the bag is trying to get to the bag. The fielder sometimes is there and contact occurs and the rules allow for that contact as long as not malicious. A runner sliding anywhere else is also legal however if he does it somewhere that interferes with a fielder making a play, I am calling him out and getting the double if possible. (Fed)

[MrUmpire]

Most times a fielder with the ball attempting a tag of R1 40' from second is tagging high and then throwing to first. I have no problem wth R1 sliding legally to avoid that tag. Nothing is the rules says he has to attain the bag as a result of his slide. If the fielder is dumb enough to be in the middle of the baseline, he'll probably get taken out, legally.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Most times a fielder with the ball attempting a tag of R1 40' from second is tagging high and then throwing to first. I have no problem wth R1 sliding legally to avoid that tag. Nothing is the rules says he has to attain the bag as a result of his slide. If the fielder is dumb enough to be in the middle of the baseline, he'll probably get taken out, legally.

That's exactly my position.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

So as long as the runner slides on the ground in a straight line toward the base and doesn't go past the base he's legal.

So you really could take out the fielder 'cause you won't go past the base.

Yes, provided no raised leg, perfectly legal.

Originally Posted by mbyron

The primary principle of sliding is: a slide is never required by rule, but if a runner slides, it must be legal. No rule prohibits "taking out" a fielder just as such: we have INT for a "take out" only when the slide or contact is otherwise illegal.

A fielder with the ball trying for a tag and a double play is protected from interference, but has no "special" protection: we are not absolved from judging whether the contact was legal by the fact that there's a double play at stake. There's no "automatic" interference here on that account.

The slide described is legal, even though it has no chance of reaching the base. As I said, the runner might simply have been avoiding the tag. I see nothing in the description that violates the slide or FPSR rules. If the contact is legal, then we play on.

Very well stated.

Originally Posted by jicecone

The runner sliding at the bag is trying to get to the bag. The fielder sometimes is there and contact occurs and the rules allow for that contact as long as not malicious. A runner sliding anywhere else is also legal however if he does it somewhere that interferes with a fielder making a play, I am calling him out and getting the double if possible. (Fed)

In the NABA league I umpire, we use the NCAA FPSR, and I've had to call it twice this season (since 2/26), once as PU and once as BU:

As PU, R1 slid straight in to the base, but late, and plowed into fielder past the base. Easy INT call.

As the BU, R1 slid to his right, directly at F6 coming across the bag, in an obvious take-out attempt.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

...
In the NABA league I umpire, we use the NCAA FPSR, and I've had to call it twice this season (since 2/26), once as PU and once as BU:

As PU, R1 slid straight in to the base, but late, and plowed into fielder past the base. Easy INT call.

....

Steve,

Where the heck you been hiding?

So, I take it you're using LAST year's NCAA FPSR rule????

Because this year, the one I "clipped" wouldn't be an FPSR violation in NCAA.

Yes, I'm sure.

JM

P.S. 206? Way to go, dude!

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Yes, provided no raised leg, perfectly legal.

Very well stated.

In the NABA league I umpire, we use the NCAA FPSR, and I've had to call it twice this season (since 2/26), once as PU and once as BU:

As PU, R1 slid straight in to the base, but late, and plowed into fielder past the base. Easy INT call.

As the BU, R1 slid to his right, directly at F6 coming across the bag, in an obvious take-out attempt.

ONE small problem on the first (PU) one.

In NCAA rules you can slide through the base. The fielder is not protected behind the base.

See the diagram on page 96 of the current NCAA rules book, available as a pdf on line at

NCAA Publications - 2011-2012 Baseball Rules (2 Year Publication)