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Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 09:09am
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I can not find this play in the case book or in the rule book...If you know where it may be found I would appreciate you sharing it with me.

Runner on second, no outs, batter bunts back to the pitcher. The pitcher looks the runner back and throws to first for the force out.. The runner breaks towards third on the throw and the batter-runner slides into first on the inside of the bag in the attempt to keep the first baseman from having a clear throw to third base.

My question is this: Is this action by the batter-runner a violation of the "sliding rule" on a force play? I know the runner must slide into the base or away from any fielder on a "force" play which may be a potential double play, does this same rule apply on a play at first with a potential double play being the second throw to third base.

What if, the throw to first was up the line, the batter slides to avoid the tag, and takes the first basemen out, but is declared out himself. Could a coach not argue that he kept the first basemen from making a double play at third base?
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Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 09:55am
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Runners are NEVER required to slide, but if a runner ELECTS to slide, the slide must be legal (FED 8-4-2b)

A runner is out if he causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play, does not slide in a direct line between the bases (same cite).

Penalty: Runner is out, ball dead immediately, interference is called. Other runners return to TOP base.
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Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 10:26am
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Quote:
Originally posted by VaCoach
I can not find this play in the case book or in the rule book...If you know where it may be found I would appreciate you sharing it with me.

Runner on second, no outs, batter bunts back to the pitcher. The pitcher looks the runner back and throws to first for the force out.. The runner breaks towards third on the throw and the batter-runner slides into first on the inside of the bag in the attempt to keep the first baseman from having a clear throw to third base.

My question is this: Is this action by the batter-runner a violation of the "sliding rule" on a force play? I know the runner must slide into the base or away from any fielder on a "force" play which may be a potential double play, does this same rule apply on a play at first with a potential double play being the second throw to third base.

What if, the throw to first was up the line, the batter slides to avoid the tag, and takes the first basemen out, but is declared out himself. Could a coach not argue that he kept the first basemen from making a double play at third base?
1. The play at first is NOT a force play. Therefore the FPSR is NOT in effect.

2. Anytime a runner intentionally interfers with a throw or a thrown ball, or hinders a fielder making a play, two can be called out.
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Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 11:01am
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"Could a coach not argue that he kept the first basemen from making a double play at third base?"


It's been my experience that a coach can argue anything.
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Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 12:23pm
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I agree with what GarthB asked. Why could not a coach argue that this side kept the first baseman from getting a double play. What about same type play in a first and third situation. Does the runner going to second have to slide directly into second base or can he not try to avoid being tagged and what if in this attempt he slides into the shortstop who is attempting to throw to home to get the runner who was on third base? Neither of these plays are "force" plays, so do you have the slide rule in affect?
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Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 12:36pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by VaCoach
I agree with what GarthB asked. Why could not a coach argue that this side kept the first baseman from getting a double play. What about same type play in a first and third situation. Does the runner going to second have to slide directly into second base or can he not try to avoid being tagged and what if in this attempt he slides into the shortstop who is attempting to throw to home to get the runner who was on third base? Neither of these plays are "force" plays, so do you have the slide rule in affect?
I truly believe GarthB made a statement, not a question.

As far as the rest of your question, I am assuming that you are talking about a runner on 1st and 3rd. In this case the runner going into 2nd IS, a force play and has the option of sliding in a direct line with the bases or running away from the play and NOT doing anything to alter the play. If the runner does alter the play or slide illegally to cause contact, the umpire can call the runner out at second and the runner the fielder was attemping to throw out.

Of course, I am also assuming you are asking about High School Rules.
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Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 12:40pm
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I think you missed Garth's sarcasm

For FPSR the BR must be called out as well if interference is called.

If it is not FPSR territory, the probability/certainty of the second out (DP) is the umpire's judgment. Coaches know they arent allowed to argue judgment calls

edited for attempted clarity

[Edited by LMan on Apr 22nd, 2005 at 01:43 PM]
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Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 01:55pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by LMan
I think you missed Garth's sarcasm


[Edited by LMan on Apr 22nd, 2005 at 01:43 PM]
Yeah. I must be slipping.
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Old Fri Apr 22, 2005, 10:18pm
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There are 2 issues being discussed here.
Illegal slides and interference by batter-runner.

LMan quotes the rule about a legal slide.

Quote:
Originally posted by LMan
Runners are NEVER required to slide, but if a runner ELECTS to slide, the slide must be legal (FED 8-4-2b)

A runner is out if he causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play, does not slide in a direct line between the bases (same cite).

Penalty: Runner is out, ball dead immediately, interference is called. Other runners return to TOP base.
Not all illegal slides are penalized. Only those which are near enough to potentially harm the fielder or those which actually cause interference. Rule 2-32-1,2. If a runner does a pop-up slide into a base with no fielder anywhere near the base there is no penalty. (I as an umpire would use preventative measures to encourage the player to use legal sliding techniques every time).

The illegal slide by the batter-runner in NF rules creates quite a dilemma on decision to declare batter-runner AND another runner out. Which rule do we apply?

Rule 8-4-1? NO. This rule addresses when the batter-runner is out. Interference by the batter-baserunner caused by illegal slide is not addressed. 8-4-1h only applies if interference was by another runner, not BR.

8-4-2b? NO. The rule seems to apply at first because the heading includes any runner. However, use of this rule restricts us to declare ONLY the batter-runner out.

What about 8-4-2b PENALTY? This does not apply. Why? Because none of the penalties given address the issue that it was the batter-runner who was guilty of the FPSL interference. It assumes the runner on base was the one guilty. Because of the restrictions/ommissions in PENALTY I would reject the use of this rule.

My answer to post:

8-4-2f: Use this rule to declare the batter-runner out for executing illegal slide. (Of course we could also just apply 2-24 and call batter-runner out on either force or tag).

In either case to penalize the subsequent interference apply:
8-4-2g: Use this rule to declare the runner originally on second out. In the middle of the paragraph it states: "If, in the judgement of the umpire, a runner INCLUDING the batter-runner interferes in any way and prevents a double play anywhere, two SHALL be declared out. The runner at 2nd in the post was the only runner that could have been played on.

Comment: application of 8-4-2g gets even more dicey is to start the play bases were loaded and one or more outs. A timing play results and runs may or may not score depending on whether the umpire has knowledge (or not) of which runner was played on.




[Edited by Daryl H. Long on Apr 22nd, 2005 at 11:44 PM]
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