Sliding Question

[mbyron]

Well, as they say, stupid isn't illegal. I have no idea why a runner would start his slide halfway between the bases, but as long as the contact is not malicious I've simply got an attempt to avoid a tag. My bar for MC is going to be a lot lower that far from the base, though.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Well, as they say, stupid isn't illegal. I have no idea why a runner would start his slide halfway between the bases,

Simple. He's trying to break up a double play.

I didn't know if FED had any rules about the slide having to be "at" or "near" the base.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Spence

Simple. He's trying to break up a double play.

I didn't know if FED had any rules about the slide having to be "at" or "near" the base.

And that is what the rule was put in for. Breaking up a double play usually means take out the fielder or disrupt his throw. FPSR was put in to eliminate and/or minimize contact between the runner and fielder. It allows contact only if the fielder ends up in front of the bag and the runner is executing a legal slide or attempting to avoid contact. Incidental contact.

I agree with Mbyron, "my bar for MC is going to be a lot lower that far from the base, though." The manner in which the runner is trying to break up the double play 45 ft from the bag, better pretty much conform to the same FPSR regulations allowed at the bag. .

Taking out the fielder this far from the bag and just before reaching the bag are two different scenarios. I find very hard to believe that the runner is trying to reach the base on a direct slide into the bag, 45 feet away. Sorry Rich

[Spence]

Originally Posted by jicecone

And that is what the rule was put in for. Breaking up a double play usually means take out the fielder or disrupt his throw. FPSR was put in to eliminate and/or minimize contact between the runner and fielder. It allows contact only if the fielder ends up in front of the bag and the runner is executing a legal slide or attempting to avoid contact. Incidental contact.

I agree with Mbyron, "my bar for MC is going to be a lot lower that far from the base, though." The manner in which the runner is trying to break up the double play 45 ft from the bag, better pretty much conform to the same FPSR regulations allowed at the bag. .

Taking out the fielder this far from the bag and just before reaching the bag are two different scenarios. I find very hard to believe that the runner is trying to reach the base on a direct slide into the bag, 45 feet away. Sorry Rich

I'm not trying to be dense but I'm not sure if you're saying this slide is legal or not.

Do the rules forbid sliding if the runner is not within X feet of the base? If the runner executes a legal slide ie leg not raised - straight - etc and makes contact with the defender is it legal?

I ask because I read an SI article about Orioles manager Buck Showalter and his player mentioned Buck teaching them this. I was wondering if FED allowed it.

[mbyron]

The primary principle of sliding is: a slide is never required by rule, but if a runner slides, it must be legal. No rule prohibits "taking out" a fielder just as such: we have INT for a "take out" only when the slide or contact is otherwise illegal.

A fielder with the ball trying for a tag and a double play is protected from interference, but has no "special" protection: we are not absolved from judging whether the contact was legal by the fact that there's a double play at stake. There's no "automatic" interference here on that account.

The slide described is legal, even though it has no chance of reaching the base. As I said, the runner might simply have been avoiding the tag. I see nothing in the description that violates the slide or FPSR rules. If the contact is legal, then we play on.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Spence

I ask because I read an SI article about Orioles manager Buck Showalter and his player mentioned Buck teaching them this. I was wondering if FED allowed it.

At the pro level, you could pull it off, since there's no FPSR.

The fielder is usually trying to tag the runner but stay out of his way: if he slides toward the fielder in that situation, you'd very probably have an FPSR violation and an easy DP call. For HS ball I'd consider this a very low probability play for the offense.

That's not how I'm reading your original play.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by mbyron

At the pro level, you could pull it off, since there's no FPSR.

The fielder is usually trying to tag the runner but stay out of his way: if he slides toward the fielder in that situation, you'd very probably have an FPSR violation and an easy DP call. For HS ball I'd consider this a very low probability play for the offense.

That's not how I'm reading your original play.

I'm picturing a fielder with the ball in his glove coming at the oncoming runner to try to tag him and throw to F3 for the DP. He's in the baseline as he's running at the runner.

Are you saying the runner's only options are to be tagged or try to avoid the tag? Sliding is not an option? I always took the FPSR to be when the fielder is actually touching the bag. I guess I'm having trouble distinguishing between the runner being allowed to slide into the fielder if the fielder is in front of the bag in the baseline vs sliding into the same fielder in the same baseline who is not "in front of the bag."

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Spence

I'm picturing a fielder with the ball in his glove coming at the oncoming runner to try to tag him and throw to F3 for the DP. He's in the baseline as he's running at the runner.

Are you saying the runner's only options are to be tagged or try to avoid the tag? Sliding is not an option? I always took the FPSR to be when the fielder is actually touching the bag. I guess I'm having trouble distinguishing between the runner being allowed to slide into the fielder if the fielder is in front of the bag in the baseline vs sliding into the same fielder in the same baseline who is not "in front of the bag."

The runner sliding at the bag is trying to get to the bag. The fielder sometimes is there and contact occurs and the rules allow for that contact as long as not malicious. A runner sliding anywhere else is also legal however if he does it somewhere that interferes with a fielder making a play, I am calling him out and getting the double if possible. (Fed)

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Well, as they say, stupid isn't illegal. I have no idea why a runner would start his slide halfway between the bases, but as long as the contact is not malicious I've simply got an attempt to avoid a tag. My bar for MC is going to be a lot lower that far from the base, though.

mbyron,

Perhaps to legally(???) "take out" the F4, preventing him from completing the DP?

I'm still debating (with myself, anyway) whether this would meet the 8-4-2(c) & 8-4-2(f) standard of "legally avoiding" or whether 8-4-1(h) would prevail.

What do you think? Stupid, or too clever by half?

JM

[dash_riprock]

Given the distance from the base, the runner is probably close to interfering with the fielding of a batted ball. That would be a different animal. The slide would be irrelevant.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Given the distance from the base, the runner is probably close to interfering with the fielding of a batted ball. That would be a different animal. The slide would be irrelevant.

dash,

Certainly possible, but that wasn't the question. What if the fielder has already "secured" the batted ball and is moving to tag the runner?

JM

[Spence]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

dash,

Certainly possible, but that wasn't the question. What if the fielder has already "secured" the batted ball and is moving to tag the runner?

JM

That's the scenario I meant to present.

[Spence]

Does the wording of a legal slide say something about being able to reach the base with the hand or foot as this link states?

Force play slide rule

Does 2-32-1 tell us that this is illegal?

[UmpJM]

Spence,

I think I understand what you're saying, but I don't "think" that's the intent (nor the "meaning") of that requirement. I believe it means, as in OBR, that if the runner slides "past" the base, he must do so "within reach". And that, of course, is in a "non-FPSR" situation where the forced runner must slide directly to the base and is not even allowed the "within reach" tolerance.

JM

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

dash,

Certainly possible, but that wasn't the question. What if the fielder has already "secured" the batted ball and is moving to tag the runner?

JM

If the act of fielding the ball was complete, maybe a slide is legal. I think FPSR standards would apply.