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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 10:21pm
DG DG is offline
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Runners Swap

I was just asked this question. It came from a FED clinic but same could happen under OBR.

Bottom 7th, tie game, 2 outs, although I don't think that matters.

Batter hits a double, he is a slow runner. Next batter is fastest player on the team and he is intentional walked. Defensive coach goes to mound to talk with defense. Offensive coach calls runners over for discussion. When play resumes slow runner is on first and fast runner is on second. Batter hits first pitch for a hit, fast runner scores. Defensive coach comes out to complain that runners swapped.

What you got?
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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 10:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DG View Post
I was just asked this question. It came from a FED clinic but same could happen under OBR.

Bottom 7th, tie game, 2 outs, although I don't think that matters.

Batter hits a double, he is a slow runner. Next batter is fastest player on the team and he is intentional walked. Defensive coach goes to mound to talk with defense. Offensive coach calls runners over for discussion. When play resumes slow runner is on first and fast runner is on second. Batter hits first pitch for a hit, fast runner scores. Defensive coach comes out to complain that runners swapped.

What you got?
I have an umpire who is asleep for putting the ball in play (or allowing his partner to do so). It should have been 3 ejections and an out for passing (maybe the out is a bit of a stretch but I like the idea).
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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 10:46pm
DG DG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dash_riprock View Post
I have an umpire who is asleep for putting the ball in play (or allowing his partner to do so). It should have been 3 ejections and an out for passing (maybe the out is a bit of a stretch but I like the idea).
I said same about the umpires and then questioner asked what if they were d*mn near twins, so back to subject....

I will comment later what I said.
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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 10:57pm
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I still have 3 EJs. Did they forget which base they were on? Zero tolerance for that juvenile stuff.
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Old Mon Feb 28, 2011, 10:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DG View Post
I said same about the umpires and then questioner asked what if they were d*mn near twins, so back to subject....

I will comment later what I said.
Always look at the number of the lead runner if there are only two on base.

Now...your question asked...what do you have...what you have is a mess...that I'm not sure you can get out of...remember, the other coach didn't catch it either.

If you can write incident reports in your FED state, I would certainly do that under sportsmanship and they could be reprimanded by the state.

I'm not sure if FED allows you to go back and "fix" anything like that for not catching it when it should've been caught.

*you means the hypothetical "you" that we all use...not intended to be YOU personally.
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Old Tue Mar 01, 2011, 06:51am
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If you notice it after the swap occurs (as you should) and before the pitch, do you eject the runners and manager under 9.01 (d)
Quote:
9.01 (d)Each umpire has authority to disqualify any player, coach, manager or substitute for objecting to decisions or for unsportsmanlike conduct...
or do you call the runners out under
Quote:
7.08 Any runner is out when- (h) He passes a preceding runner before such runner is out;...
and
Quote:
7.08 Any runner is out when-(i) After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game...
or are there other pertainant rules I need to reference?
Also, are you ejecting the runners or simply calling them out, or both?

Last edited by rbmartin; Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 06:52am. Reason: added thought
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Old Tue Mar 01, 2011, 08:08am
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This is a blatent attempt to circumvent the rules to gain an advantage, in other words --CHEATING. I will implement the most severe penalty I can, and that would be to call the lead runner out for passing and call the trail runner out for running the bases in reverse order. And I dare a coach who just tried to cheat to come out and argue with me. He will be in the parking lot very quickly.
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Old Wed Mar 02, 2011, 12:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DG View Post
I was just asked this question. It came from a FED clinic but same could happen under OBR.

Bottom 7th, tie game, 2 outs, although I don't think that matters.

Batter hits a double, he is a slow runner. Next batter is fastest player on the team and he is intentional walked. Defensive coach goes to mound to talk with defense. Offensive coach calls runners over for discussion. When play resumes slow runner is on first and fast runner is on second. Batter hits first pitch for a hit, fast runner scores. Defensive coach comes out to complain that runners swapped.

What you got?
This post really gets things going. There does not seem to be any direct reference in the FED r OBR books, but it is directly referenced in the ASA Softball rule book. Seems that this was a pretty common ploy used in some SB games in the past. Both runners called out and Coach ejected.
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Old Wed Mar 02, 2011, 10:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DBull View Post
This post really gets things going. There does not seem to be any direct reference in the FED r OBR books, but it is directly referenced in the ASA Softball rule book. Seems that this was a pretty common ploy used in some SB games in the past. Both runners called out and Coach ejected.
OK - Now a twist.

No outs when the decpetion occurs.
Then B3 makes an out. Then B4 makes an out.
Then B5 gets the hit referenced in the OP.

Ok, so you call both runners out and eject the coach as in the ASA reference above (or both runners out and eject all as many have suggested.)

All ejected parties evacuate and the "new" head coach calmly approaches the U and says:
" Hey Blue, I got a problem with that call. My B2 batted first and then B1 then B3. We were very glad the D did not catch it and appeal, but all that action stands and the proper B5 got a hit. You gotta fix it."

Rut ro, now what??
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Old Thu Mar 03, 2011, 02:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbie View Post
OK - Now a twist.

No outs when the decpetion occurs.
Then B3 makes an out. Then B4 makes an out.
Then B5 gets the hit referenced in the OP.

Ok, so you call both runners out and eject the coach as in the ASA reference above (or both runners out and eject all as many have suggested.)

All ejected parties evacuate and the "new" head coach calmly approaches the U and says:
" Hey Blue, I got a problem with that call. My B2 batted first and then B1 then B3. We were very glad the D did not catch it and appeal, but all that action stands and the proper B5 got a hit. You gotta fix it."

Rut ro, now what??
You are funny. Really.
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Old Thu Mar 03, 2011, 11:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbie View Post
OK - Now a twist.

No outs when the decpetion occurs.
Then B3 makes an out. Then B4 makes an out.
Then B5 gets the hit referenced in the OP.

Ok, so you call both runners out and eject the coach as in the ASA reference above (or both runners out and eject all as many have suggested.)

All ejected parties evacuate and the "new" head coach calmly approaches the U and says:
" Hey Blue, I got a problem with that call. My B2 batted first and then B1 then B3. We were very glad the D did not catch it and appeal, but all that action stands and the proper B5 got a hit. You gotta fix it."

Rut ro, now what??
You could eject the HC and act like you never heard what he said.
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Old Thu Mar 03, 2011, 11:17pm
DG DG is offline
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Nice discussion, and nice question asked.

When I was first asked I thought an out for passing and a coach ejection for cheating. After the FED ruling was pointed out, I have 2 outs in a FED game, one for passing one for running backwards. I still have on ejection for coach cheating. The players who swapped did what coach told them to do, so I not eject them. I expect players to do what the coach tells them.

For the batted ball, I say let it stand, batter has done nothing wrong. If an out, let it stand, more penalty for the offense. If a hit let it stand. It would only matter if there were no outs because with 1 or 2 outs, the 2 out ruling would end the inning, and the offense is not likely to pull this stunt with no outs anyway, more likely with 2 outs, maybe 1, but who would do this with no outs?. I don't know. This is definitely a situation not covered by rule or case book that I can find.

My third game of season I was on bases, and late in game defense called time and offensive HC coach called runners over from 1st and 2nd. When they went back, I thought, sh*t, I did not look at numbers so have no idea if they swapped (thinking about this sit). Then coach made a sub for runner on 2b and I thought, case closed, why would he swap them and then replace lead runner? But it made me realize I must pay attention to numbers when this happens...

Lesson for all, umpires can prevent this situation from happening.

Last edited by DG; Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 11:20pm.
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