The batter attempts to bunt with 2 strikes but POPS it up

[pastordoug]

How about FED ruling? 7-4-1e "an attempt to bunt on thrird strike is a foul." Same play mentioned in OP but following FED you have an out with dead ball... Some of us still doing HS but always trying to learn.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by pastordoug

How about FED ruling? 7-4-1e "an attempt to bunt on thrird strike is a foul." Same play mentioned in OP but following FED you have an out with dead ball... Some of us still doing HS but always trying to learn.

7-4-1-e says it's an out for bunting foul on the third strike

and 5-1-1-d-3 says it becomes dead if it becomes an UNCAUGHT foul

[bob jenkins]

This rule is the same in all codes. The batter is out, the ball remains live, runners can attempt to advance, they are subject to appeal if they don't retouch after the ball is touched, ...

[jkumpire]

Originally Posted by JerzeeRef

Page 29, College Baseball Rules Study Guide.

Batter is out:

D. With two strikes, he bunts foul (7-11i). If the ball is caught in flight, it remains live; otherwise the ball is dead immediately.

Sir,

What is the College Baseball Rules Study Guide? Where may I purchase this, or read it on the 'net if it exists there?

Thank you

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Sir,

What is the College Baseball Rules Study Guide? Where may I purchase this, or read it on the 'net if it exists there?

Thank you

Order from RefMag

[JJ]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Sir,

What is the College Baseball Rules Study Guide? Where may I purchase this, or read it on the 'net if it exists there?

Thank you

www.referee.com/magads/2011BS or 800-733-6100

JJ

[jkumpire]

Originally Posted by JJ

www.referee.com/magads/2011BS or 800-733-6100

JJ

Link does not work!

[johnnyg08]

Go to referee.com and click on the publications link on the left...then click on the word baseball and you'll see it there. it's $20 and a good read.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Link does not work!

Then use this one -

Study Guide: College Baseball Rules 2011 20% NASO MEMBER DISCOUNT AVAILABLE - applied at checkout :

JJ

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by pastordoug

How about FED ruling? 7-4-1e "an attempt to bunt on thrird strike is a foul." Same play mentioned in OP but following FED you have an out with dead ball... Some of us still doing HS but always trying to learn.

How about this from the Fed Case Book:

2.16.1 COMMENT: Determining when the ball becomes dead on a foul is sometimes tricky. With R1 on second and no one out, consider the following: (1) An attempted bunt on third strike by B2 is a foul fly that is caught by F2. B2 would have been out without the catch, but because of the catch, F1 is not credited with a strikeout and R1 may attempt to advance after the catch.

I think we've thorougly beat this horse dead... in all rule codes.

[soundedlikeastrike]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Absolutely, positively, incorrect. The definition of foul is independent of whether or not it was caught. That's why the dead ball rule says a ball is dead if a foul ball is not caught. It also covers why a caught foul ball is live. It's because a foul can be either caught or not.

The definition of "foul" okay, I see your angle. however none of my OBR based literature offers a definition of FOUL. so don't know where you going with that?

However the OP and my statements concern a "foul ball".

The definition of "foul ball" can very well be dependent on whether caught or not. In the OP as I see the intent, is 100% "dependent" on whether caught or not.

OBR Definition:
A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

The definition of a catch however, has no dependence on fair or foul.

OBR Definition:
A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession.

[soundedlikeastrike]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

What is the mechanic for a fair tip?

I use the ole; smile, with a wink and the double eye brow raise..

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

The definition of "foul" okay, I see your angle. however none of my OBR based literature offers a definition of FOUL. so don't know where you going with that?

However the OP and my statements concern a "foul ball".

The definition of "foul ball" can very well be dependent on whether caught or not. In the OP as I see the intent, is 100% "dependent" on whether caught or not.

OBR Definition:
A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

The definition of a catch however, has no dependence on fair or foul.

OBR Definition:
A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession.

1) You said none of the literature defines foul then you quote the rule that defines it.

2) You said fair/foul can be dependent on caught or not - but you quoted the rule which makes no mention of the location of the ball.

Lets look at the relevant part:

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball . . . that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.


Was the ball over foul ground - yes.

Did it touch a player while there? - Yes

It's foul.

Caught/Not Caught is completely independent of fair/foul.

Live/dead on a foul ball IS dependent on caught/not caught, but first you have to know 1) was it fair or foul and 2) was it caught or not.

[soundedlikeastrike]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

1) You said none of the literature defines foul then you quote the rule that defines it.

Reminds me of an ole song: here we go roun in circles, see the fly way up in the skyyyy.. I made that part up.

SLAS: NO, I clearly quoted the definition of a "FOUL BALL", as I stated, there is no such beast as "foul". Where I think you and I are on a disconnect is; I use the "definitions" verbatim and firmly believe everybody should.
You would say; a ball hit over foul territory is a foul ball no matter what happens to it.
I say a ball over foul territory that is touched, is a foul ball and is dead and one that is caught over foul territory is a "caught fly ball".

2) You said fair/foul can be dependent on caught or not - but you quoted the rule which makes no mention of the location of the ball.

SLAS: No I clearly said a "foul ball" AND I quoted "a catch", because it is NOT dependent on fair or foul, that's what I was trying to get across. A fly ball that is caught is never foul, or at least there is no worth in noting it either way, so why bother? Or should we refer to the scorekeepers, maybe they care? Oh wait, except; U-Trip SP SB: With one strike if the batter hits a second foul ball, the ball is dead and no runners may advance, except at the Majors Division. Nat. Interp.


Lets look at the relevant part:

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball . . . that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

SLAS: Okay.

Was the ball over foul ground - yes.
SLAS: WE are clearly in total agreement here, all right!!

Did it touch a player while there? - Yes

SLAS: UH-OH! Here we will disconnect again. NO the ball was not "touched" by a player, it was caught by a player. Hence why, in my original post I tried to clarify that, touch and catch are only used in the same sentence when; considering the legality of a runner re-tagging on a ball which is eventually caught. We must agree, there is a difference between touch and catch? Is a re-tagging runner allowed to leave on a touch or must he wait for the catch, no need to answer, I know we agree on that. If you let that sink in for just a moment, you must agree, there is a difference between the two.
If you don't re-read "a catch" and compare it to the following;
OBR: TOUCH. To touch a player or umpire is to touch any part of his body, his clothing or his equipment. Touch is not, anyway, anywho, related to, or in the same zip code as "a catch".

It's foul.

SLAS: No, it's a caught fly ball, and remains live. I didn't, nor will I go back through this thread and count for you, but all but one poster here by now, agrees; the OP is, "a caught fly ball" that remains in play and will leave the O in jeopardy, because the D may still make a play on them.

Caught/Not Caught is completely independent of fair/foul.
SLAS: Hey were agreeing a lot more.

Live/dead on a foul ball IS dependent on caught/not caught, but first you have to know 1) was it fair or foul and 2) was it caught or not.

SLAS: Dang another disconnect. Live/dead is never dependent of anything on a foul ball, a foul ball by definition and rule is always "dead". Hence why it " a foul ball" can never be caught.

A fly ball over foul territory with a defender under it is neither fair nor foul. The fact that if it were to fall or be touched while over foul territory would make it foul, it is not until, after that "something" happens. If the ball is caught over foul territory it's still in play, why, because it did not become a foul ball.

[tiger49]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

SLAS: Dang another disconnect. Live/dead is never dependent of anything on a foul ball, a foul ball by definition and rule is always "dead". Hence why it " a foul ball" can never be caught.

A fly ball over foul territory with a defender under it is neither fair nor foul. The fact that if it were to fall or be touched while over foul territory would make it foul, it is not until, after that "something" happens. If the ball is caught over foul territory it's still in play, why, because it did not become a foul ball.

5.09 The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when—

e) A foul ball is not caught, in which case runners return to their bases. The umpire-inchief shall not put the ball in play until all runners have retouched their bases;

Live/dead is always dependent on one thing on a foul ball. Wither it was caught or uncaught. Uncaught, ball is dead. Caught the ball remains live.

The rulebook is meant to be read, not for you to just look at the nice little diagrams.