The batter attempts to bunt with 2 strikes but POPS it up

[soundedlikeastrike]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Bob,
A foul is not foul until touched or it comes to a stop on foul ground. As this ball was touched and secured, as the result of an attempted bunt with two strikes, by rule it should be immediately dead. Obviously we have an issue of whether the foul third strike supersedes a foul catch. So far I haven't seen anything that I can use to call this a live ball. I hate these plays but know that it wouldn't be in there unless it happened to one of us and will again. Thanks.

"Obviously we have an issue of whether the foul third strike supersedes a foul catch."

No, "we" don't. One of us is confusing "touched" with caught, they are not the same.

A ball that is in flight off the bat that is "caught" can never be foul.
It's a caught fly ball and caught fly balls are live.

A ball that was foul, can not be caught, because it either hit (beyond 1B-3B), settled, was touched (read booted), or hit something over foul territory.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

"Obviously we have an issue of whether the foul third strike supersedes a foul catch."

No, "we" don't. One of us is confusing "touched" with caught, they are not the same.

A ball that is in flight off the bat that is "caught" can never be foul.
It's a caught fly ball and caught fly balls are live.

A ball that was foul, can not be caught, because it either hit (beyond 1B-3B), settled, was touched (read booted), or hit something over foul territory.

My apologies for including you.

For all otherss, I am seeking an official rule book reference for this play.

It is impossible to separate touch and catch on this play. The ball was not bobbled (nor booted) and no mention of an improper release occured. The second the player touched it, it was caught. The ensuing play, as described indicates as much.

Anyone else seen an umpire watch a batted ball get caught in foul territory, signal catch and then point foul? Why indicate the place of catch if a caught fly ball is just a caught fly ball?

Thank you.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by yawetag

What else do you want?

Andrew,
Thank you. I saw the J/R reference but it does not provide a ruling. The Jim Evans book is outstanding but not a rule book. I would love to see an NCAA umpire try to show that to a coach.

This is one of those wierd plays that makes me hate umpiring but love the game. I really appreciate the effort to look this up. The NCAA rulings come out in a few days. It looks like I got it wrong but that won't be the first or last time. Have a good season.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Anyone else seen an umpire watch a batted ball get caught in foul territory, signal catch and then point foul?

If I did, I'd laugh my *** off. You signal fair/foul, then catch/no catch.

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

A ball that is in flight off the bat that is "caught" can never be foul.

Try again.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

"A ball that is in flight off the bat that is "caught" can never be foul.

A ball that was foul, can not be caught, because it either hit (beyond 1B-3B), settled, was touched (read booted), or hit something over foul territory.

Absolutely, positively, incorrect. The definition of foul is independent of whether or not it was caught. That's why the dead ball rule says a ball is dead if a foul ball is not caught. It also covers why a caught foul ball is live. It's because a foul can be either caught or not.

[ManInBlue]

This really isn't as complicated as you are trying to make it. There is no need to separate the touch and the catch. He popped it up, it was caught, period.

If he popped it up and F2 attempted to catch the ball, standing 3' in foul territory but bobbled it and the ball fell to the ground in fair territory...we have a touch in or over foul territory and thus a dead ball, foul (then we talk about the count, etc) - and the batter is out because his bunt attempt on the 3rd strike was bunted foul.

Your situation is just a catch, that's all. Forget the 3rd strike, forget the bunt attempt. He popped up to F2 - he's out because F2 CAUGHT THE BALL.

You won't have a coach try to argue the difference in touch and catch in this situation. It's a caught fly ball, the ball is live by definition.

[johnnyg08]

Please listen and read ManInBlue's post. It really is that simple.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

A ball that is in flight off the bat that is "caught" can never be foul.

What is the mechanic for a fair tip?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I would love to see an NCAA umpire try to show that to a coach.

NCAA 6-2a. The ball becomes dead and base runners return when A foul is hit that is not caught. Runners return ...

NCAA 8-6.a A runner shall be called out on specifi appeals that are made when:
(1) The base runer does not retouch the base before a fielder tags the runner or the base after a fair or foul fly ball i stouched in making a legal catch.

Can't get any clearer.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

What is the mechanic for a fair tip?

The same as a foul that's caught. :P

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I would love to see an NCAA umpire try to show that to a coach.

I would hope an NCAA umpire doesn't show ANYTHING to a coach. If a coach disagrees with your call, he can follow the proper protest procedures.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by yawetag

I would hope an NCAA umpire doesn't show ANYTHING to a coach. If a coach disagrees with your call, he can follow the proper protest procedures.

The point I made, badly it seems, is that when discussing NCAA mechanics, a Jim Evans manual is fairly useless for affirming calls at that level. Don't get me wrong, I think Jim is a terrific instructor but his book has little place in an NCAA umpire's bag. I was looking for an NCAA reference and Bob provided it.

Thanks to all for clarifying this play. The exam questions and answers come out soon and I'm sure we'll see more talk about them here.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

My immediate thought is that the batter is out and the ball is dead the second the catcher touches it. Runners cannot advance and must return. Penalties in baseball are designed to punish the person/team at fault - in this case, the batter.

Using that logic, if you call this a dead ball, you are punishing the defense by preventing them from attempting to get a second out on this play. That's not punishing the batter at all!

[JerzeeRef]

Page 29, College Baseball Rules Study Guide.

Batter is out:

D. With two strikes, he bunts foul (7-11i). If the ball is caught in flight, it remains live; otherwise the ball is dead immediately.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by JerzeeRef

Page 29, College Baseball Rules Study Guide.

Batter is out:

D. With two strikes, he bunts foul (7-11i). If the ball is caught in flight, it remains live; otherwise the ball is dead immediately.

I've been reading that one the last couple of weeks too. Now I have that one and the new BRD to page through...that should tie me over until April when I can start umpiring again and the 4 feet of snow is gone.