Fpsr??

[Matt]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Cookie, were you working the scrimmage alone?
Wouldn't this normally be the BU's call? If you had a BU for this game what was he doing as the play developed?

No, this is PU's call. BU has to be watching for the tag of second, the release, and the call at first.

[dash_riprock]

Either one can call it.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Matt

No, this is PU's call. BU has to be watching for the tag of second, the release, and the call at first.

I do not work NCAA baseball, as such I'm not at all familiar with proper NCAA 2-man mechanics, coverages, and responsibilities.

I do know though that under pretty much any rule set as the BU my responsibility on this play is (as you point out) to: first, watch for the tag at 2B; second, watch for the release; and third, make the call at 1B.

So that I understand the mechanic correctly, where in the breakdown of the play in the OP listed below, should I be releasing from my responsibilities on at 2nd base on this play to the make the call at 1st base?

From the description in the OP of how the play evolved:
R1 on 1st
1)...grounder to SS who throws to F4...
2) who takes the throw on the backside of 2nd base (left field side)
3) R1 running hard toward second....
4) who then jumps toward second as F4 takes the throw touching the bag...
5) R1 lands with both feet on the bag and then goes down into a slide more or less over the bag...
6) and slides over and past it into contact with F4 who was just releasing the ball to first. (BR was safe)

[bob jenkins]

Contact that is at about the time of the release can be called by either. If it's well before the release, it's BU's call; if it's well after the release it's PU's.

[cookie]

Dash wrote: "Textbook FPSR violation. No doubt about it. And you should be heading up the other (1B) side of the field."

2008 CCA Umpires Manual has this to say about 2-Man NCAA mechanics on this type of situation:

"Plays within the Infield...Double Play ground ball...with a throw to 2nd...PU moves to the 3rd base side of the pitcher's mound to assist U1 on the slide at 2nd base by R1. PU has secondary responsibility for assisting U1 on the swipe tag and/pulled foot at first base." (page 67)

I read/learned this 2 years ago and have put it into practice ever since...

Has it changed since the 2008 Manual?

[cookie]

KJUmp wrote: "...Wouldn't this normally be the BU's call?..."

As has been said, it's either umpire's call; but I learned early in my career (short compared to many) that as a base umpire, leave this call generally to the PU unless it's really blatant.

I remember my first time as a BU in the B position in this situation; I fixated on R1's slide into second and by the time I turned my head to observe the throw to 1st, the ball was already in the 1st baseman's glove and the BR was already past the bag. I didn't know what the call should be; I was up the creek AND without the paddle!!! However, I was working with an alert/experienced PU whom I went to and he easily bailed me out of this embarrasing situation.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by cookie

Dash wrote: "Textbook FPSR violation. No doubt about it. And you should be heading up the other (1B) side of the field."

2008 CCA Umpires Manual has this to say about 2-Man NCAA mechanics on this type of situation:

"Plays within the Infield...Double Play ground ball...with a throw to 2nd...PU moves to the 3rd base side of the pitcher's mound to assist U1 on the slide at 2nd base by R1. PU has secondary responsibility for assisting U1 on the swipe tag and/pulled foot at first base." (page 67)

I read/learned this 2 years ago and have put it into practice ever since...

Has it changed since the 2008 Manual?

I have the 2009 and it says the same thing.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by cookie

Dash wrote: "Textbook FPSR violation. No doubt about it. And you should be heading up the other (1B) side of the field."

2008 CCA Umpires Manual has this to say about 2-Man NCAA mechanics on this type of situation:

"Plays within the Infield...Double Play ground ball...with a throw to 2nd...PU moves to the 3rd base side of the pitcher's mound to assist U1 on the slide at 2nd base by R1. PU has secondary responsibility for assisting U1 on the swipe tag and/pulled foot at first base." (page 67)

I read/learned this 2 years ago and have put it into practice ever since...

Has it changed since the 2008 Manual?

The manual hasn't changed cookie. But the example you cite is a ground ball to 3rd base. In that instance, I think the manual has PU initially moving towards 3rd because he also has a potential fair/foul call (and maybe a dead ball if F5 kicks it away) on the 3B side.

The manual also states PU has secondary responsibility for a swipe tag/pulled foot at 1B. On a ground ball anywhere other than to 3rd, there is no reason for PU to head up the 3rd base side of the mound.

I know the manual says PU heads up the 3B side of the mound "to assist U1 on the slide at second base," but it seems to me that PU would have a much better angle on that slide (at least the "directly to the base" part of it) from the 1B side of the mound.

Unfortunately, the manual doesn't discuss a DP ground ball to F5 or F4. It also doesn't discuss one to F3, although I can't imagine it would send PU up the 3B side on that one.

[bob jenkins]

FWIW, I agree with Dash that the better place (assuming you can get there consistent with other responsibilities / priorities) is on the first base side. If there's no FPSR violation, it puts you in a better position for swipe tag / pulled foot and overthrow.

[justanotherblue]

Had this discussion the other day in my pre-game. Both the Red book (PBUC as well as Jim Evans book) as well as the FEd have PU heading toward third on this play. The NCAA generally speaking has the PU heading up 1st base line for the pulled foot swipe tag/overthrow. Leaving the back door play at third to the BU. Basically in the NCAA, they're playing the odds on the play. That is, overall you will see more pulled foot swipe tags in a game than the back door play at third. So it comes down to what you feel is more important. The pulled foot swipe tag or the back door play at 3B, that also could wind up with a swipe tag between the ball, player and you. I prefer the Pro mechaninc, heading to 3B, UNTIl the play on R1 at 2B. If he is out, I cut across the diamond to the 1B line for the pulled foot, swipe tag help. If he's not out, I'll continue toward the library. If there is an overthrow, stop, reverse course and take the ball. You most likely won't be further than four to six steps up the line. Using this mechanic, as Jimmy say's , sometimes you gotta umpire. As the BU, just know you may have to do just that, move and gain an angle for the swipe tag. Another point often made is with two runners why are both of you with only one?

[chuckfan1]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

The manual hasn't changed cookie. But the example you cite is a ground ball to 3rd base. In that instance, I think the manual has PU initially moving towards 3rd because he also has a potential fair/foul call (and maybe a dead ball if F5 kicks it away) on the 3B side.

The manual also states PU has secondary responsibility for a swipe tag/pulled foot at 1B. On a ground ball anywhere other than to 3rd, there is no reason for PU to head up the 3rd base side of the mound.

I know the manual says PU heads up the 3B side of the mound "to assist U1 on the slide at second base," but it seems to me that PU would have a much better angle on that slide (at least the "directly to the base" part of it) from the 1B side of the mound.

Unfortunately, the manual doesn't discuss a DP ground ball to F5 or F4. It also doesn't discuss one to F3, although I can't imagine it would send PU up the 3B side on that one.

The manual shows the PU umpire going up 3rd base side of the mound for a reason. Its probably the best place to be, no matter where the ball is hit. Yes, you can have potential swipe/pulled foot at first, but much greater chance of FPSR at 2nd. And if you hustle out when the ball is hit, you can get a good view of the play at 2nd. And of course any follow-up at 3rd, PU is right there.
Yes, your not going to get more than a couple steps for a look at first, but again, your primary responsibility is FPSR. Then get what you can at first.
Plus if things blow up at first, you may end up having a good look from where you are.
Also, if your going up the first base side, your overloading that side of the field.
Two-man is playing the percentages, and your much more likely to have issues with FPSR than you are swipe/pulled...

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by chuckfan1

The manual shows the PU umpire going up 3rd base side of the mound for a reason. Its probably the best place to be, no matter where the ball is hit. Yes, you can have potential swipe/pulled foot at first, but much greater chance of FPSR at 2nd. And if you hustle out when the ball is hit, you can get a good view of the play at 2nd. And of course any follow-up at 3rd, PU is right there.
Yes, your not going to get more than a couple steps for a look at first, but again, your primary responsibility is FPSR. Then get what you can at first.
Plus if things blow up at first, you may end up having a good look from where you are.
Also, if your going up the first base side, your overloading that side of the field.
Two-man is playing the percentages, and your much more likely to have issues with FPSR than you are swipe/pulled...

You have a much better look at the slide at 2nd from the 1B side of the mound. And under CCH mechanics PU has no play at 3rd on a ball that stays in the infield.