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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 10:31pm
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Fpsr??

I did a community college scrimmage (NCAA Rules) last Saturday and have been thinking over a play that perhaps I should have called a Force Play Slide Rule interference call, though I didn't. I'll try to describe it as best as possible...

R1, 1 out, batter hits a grounder to SS who throws to F4 who takes the throw to the backside of 2nd base (left field side). I as the plate umpire am observing the play from 3rd base side/half-way to the mound. I observe R1 running hard toward second, who then jumps toward second as F4 takes the throw touching the bag. R1 lands with his feet on the bag, and then goes down into a slide more or less over the bag and sliding over and past it into contact with F4 who was just releasing the ball to first (BR was safe).

(I am aware the NCAA rules allow for R1 to pop-up slide or to slide through the bag in a straight line, unlike NFHS rules.) However, in this situation, shouldn't R1 have to start his slide before the bag and into it, not jump at an angle onto it, then go down into a slide which took him through the bag?

I didn't make the call (and no one complained), but it sure appeared in addition to the contact with F4 that the play was altered too!

Would anyone call this an instance FPSR inteference?
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 05:55am
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Textbook FPSR violation. No doubt about it. And you should be heading up the other (1B) side of the field.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 07:14am
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The FPSR is a safety rule. If your going to error on making the call, error on the side of safety and send the message.

I haven't done NCAA ball in a while but it certainally sounds as though you could have called it there.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 01:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dash_riprock View Post
Textbook FPSR violation. No doubt about it. And you should be heading up the other (1B) side of the field.
Agree first 2 sentences. 3rd sentence? Whose responsibility is R1 heading to third if he's safe at 2nd and the throw from 2nd to 1st gets away.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 01:43pm
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Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
Agree first 2 sentences. 3rd sentence? Whose responsibility is R1 heading to third if he's safe at 2nd and the throw from 2nd to 1st gets away.
If the batted ball doesn't leave the infield (as in this play), all plays on the bases belong to BU.

On the OP: 8-4.a "On any force play, the runner must slide on the ground before the base

(emphasis added)
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 03:15pm
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"...8-4.a 'On any force play, the runner must slide on the ground before the base'"


I guess that pretty much makes it textbook FPSR... I will forcibly make the call next time with the full literal force of writing to back it!

Thanks, men
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 06:23pm
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Cookie, were you working the scrimmage alone?
Wouldn't this normally be the BU's call? If you had a BU for this game what was he doing as the play developed?
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 06:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KJUmp View Post
Cookie, were you working the scrimmage alone?
Wouldn't this normally be the BU's call? If you had a BU for this game what was he doing as the play developed?
No, this is PU's call. BU has to be watching for the tag of second, the release, and the call at first.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 07:15pm
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Either one can call it.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 07:43pm
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Originally Posted by Matt View Post
No, this is PU's call. BU has to be watching for the tag of second, the release, and the call at first.
I do not work NCAA baseball, as such I'm not at all familiar with proper NCAA 2-man mechanics, coverages, and responsibilities.

I do know though that under pretty much any rule set as the BU my responsibility on this play is (as you point out) to: first, watch for the tag at 2B; second, watch for the release; and third, make the call at 1B.

So that I understand the mechanic correctly, where in the breakdown of the play in the OP listed below, should I be releasing from my responsibilities on at 2nd base on this play to the make the call at 1st base?

From the description in the OP of how the play evolved:
R1 on 1st
1)...grounder to SS who throws to F4...
2) who takes the throw on the backside of 2nd base (left field side)
3) R1 running hard toward second....
4) who then jumps toward second as F4 takes the throw touching the bag...
5) R1 lands with both feet on the bag and then goes down into a slide more or less over the bag...
6) and slides over and past it into contact with F4 who was just releasing the ball to first. (BR was safe)

Last edited by KJUmp; Tue Sep 14, 2010 at 07:45pm. Reason: grammar
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 07:50pm
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Contact that is at about the time of the release can be called by either. If it's well before the release, it's BU's call; if it's well after the release it's PU's.
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Old Wed Sep 15, 2010, 02:33am
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Dash wrote: "Textbook FPSR violation. No doubt about it. And you should be heading up the other (1B) side of the field."

2008 CCA Umpires Manual has this to say about 2-Man NCAA mechanics on this type of situation:

"Plays within the Infield...Double Play ground ball...with a throw to 2nd...PU moves to the 3rd base side of the pitcher's mound to assist U1 on the slide at 2nd base by R1. PU has secondary responsibility for assisting U1 on the swipe tag and/pulled foot at first base." (page 67)

I read/learned this 2 years ago and have put it into practice ever since...

Has it changed since the 2008 Manual?
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Old Wed Sep 15, 2010, 02:48am
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KJUmp wrote: "...Wouldn't this normally be the BU's call?..."

As has been said, it's either umpire's call; but I learned early in my career (short compared to many) that as a base umpire, leave this call generally to the PU unless it's really blatant.

I remember my first time as a BU in the B position in this situation; I fixated on R1's slide into second and by the time I turned my head to observe the throw to 1st, the ball was already in the 1st baseman's glove and the BR was already past the bag. I didn't know what the call should be; I was up the creek AND without the paddle!!! However, I was working with an alert/experienced PU whom I went to and he easily bailed me out of this embarrasing situation.
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Old Wed Sep 15, 2010, 07:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie View Post
Dash wrote: "Textbook FPSR violation. No doubt about it. And you should be heading up the other (1B) side of the field."

2008 CCA Umpires Manual has this to say about 2-Man NCAA mechanics on this type of situation:

"Plays within the Infield...Double Play ground ball...with a throw to 2nd...PU moves to the 3rd base side of the pitcher's mound to assist U1 on the slide at 2nd base by R1. PU has secondary responsibility for assisting U1 on the swipe tag and/pulled foot at first base." (page 67)

I read/learned this 2 years ago and have put it into practice ever since...

Has it changed since the 2008 Manual?
I have the 2009 and it says the same thing.
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Old Wed Sep 15, 2010, 07:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie View Post
Dash wrote: "Textbook FPSR violation. No doubt about it. And you should be heading up the other (1B) side of the field."

2008 CCA Umpires Manual has this to say about 2-Man NCAA mechanics on this type of situation:

"Plays within the Infield...Double Play ground ball...with a throw to 2nd...PU moves to the 3rd base side of the pitcher's mound to assist U1 on the slide at 2nd base by R1. PU has secondary responsibility for assisting U1 on the swipe tag and/pulled foot at first base." (page 67)

I read/learned this 2 years ago and have put it into practice ever since...

Has it changed since the 2008 Manual?
The manual hasn't changed cookie. But the example you cite is a ground ball to 3rd base. In that instance, I think the manual has PU initially moving towards 3rd because he also has a potential fair/foul call (and maybe a dead ball if F5 kicks it away) on the 3B side.

The manual also states PU has secondary responsibility for a swipe tag/pulled foot at 1B. On a ground ball anywhere other than to 3rd, there is no reason for PU to head up the 3rd base side of the mound.

I know the manual says PU heads up the 3B side of the mound "to assist U1 on the slide at second base," but it seems to me that PU would have a much better angle on that slide (at least the "directly to the base" part of it) from the 1B side of the mound.

Unfortunately, the manual doesn't discuss a DP ground ball to F5 or F4. It also doesn't discuss one to F3, although I can't imagine it would send PU up the 3B side on that one.

Last edited by dash_riprock; Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 07:58am.
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