Left Early on a Caught Fly

[jicecone]

Eastshire, for your viewing pleasure,

BRD 2009 pg 30. It don't get no easier:

29 AWARDS TO: RUNNER: FIRST PLAY BY INFIELDER:

FAKED OR FEINTED THROW

FED: Point not covered.

OFF INTERP 35-T-29: HOPKINS: A fielder with the ball walking a
few steps toward a runner constitutes a play. (Website, 2003, #7) A
pitcher steps off the pitcher's plate and turns "abruptly" toward an
occupied base. That is a play. (Website, 2003, #11) A faked or feinted
throw also constitutes a play. (Website, 2003, #10)

EXCEPT: A feint is not considered a throw. (8.3.5h)

NCAA: Same as OBR OFF INTERP 36-29, this section. (8-30-3 AR 2)

OBR: Point not covered.

OFF INTERP 36-T-29: PBUC MANUAL: "A PLAY OR ATTEMPTED PLAY
... [original emphasis] shall be interpreted as a legitimate effort by a
defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a
runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a runner, a fielder
running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a
runner, or actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to
retire a runner. A fake or a feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or
an attempted play. (The fact that the runner is not out is not relevant.)"

I r3.11

AO 4-29: J/R: "It is a play if there is a (1) tag or tag try of a
runner, (2) tag or tag try of a base, (3) throw to another fielder in a
try to put out a runner, (4) rundown, or (5) balk. [original emphasis]
(29:F) {See § 3D.}

21. ALSO: OFF INTERP 37-29: SI: J/R: "It is not a play if there is
only: (1) an appeal; (2) a fake or feint of a throw; (3) an interruption of a
throw; (4) a step or several steps toward a base or runner that do not
result in an actual tag attempt; or (5) a dropped line drive or pop fly."
Ir301

• Play 32-29: R2: Bl slaps a grounder to the shortstop, who runs a few
steps toward second as R2 retreats. F6 then overthrows first. At TOT, Bl
had already touched first. Ruling: In FED, R2 scores, and Bl goes to third
(second play). In NCAA and OBR, Bl stops at second: The throw by F6
was the first play by an infielder.

Note 26: NCAAIOBR: If F6 had tagged R2, or attempted a tag, that would
have been his "first play, " and BI would be awarded third. Observe that the
runner at second did not advance on the play, so NCAA 8-30 AR 1 and the
Approved Ruling at OBR 7.05g AR do not apply.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Eastshire, for your viewing pleasure,

BRD 2009 pg 30. It don't get no easier:

29 AWARDS TO: RUNNER: FIRST PLAY BY INFIELDER:

FAKED OR FEINTED THROW

FED: Point not covered.

OFF INTERP 35-T-29: HOPKINS: A fielder with the ball walking a
few steps toward a runner constitutes a play. (Website, 2003, #7) A
pitcher steps off the pitcher's plate and turns "abruptly" toward an
occupied base. That is a play. (Website, 2003, #11) A faked or feinted
throw also constitutes a play. (Website, 2003, #10)

EXCEPT: A feint is not considered a throw. (8.3.5h)

NCAA: Same as OBR OFF INTERP 36-29, this section. (8-30-3 AR 2)

OBR: Point not covered.

OFF INTERP 36-T-29: PBUC MANUAL: "A PLAY OR ATTEMPTED PLAY
... [original emphasis] shall be interpreted as a legitimate effort by a
defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a
runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a runner, a fielder
running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a
runner, or actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to
retire a runner. A fake or a feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or
an attempted play. (The fact that the runner is not out is not relevant.)"

I r3.11

AO 4-29: J/R: "It is a play if there is a (1) tag or tag try of a
runner, (2) tag or tag try of a base, (3) throw to another fielder in a
try to put out a runner, (4) rundown, or (5) balk. [original emphasis]
(29:F) {See § 3D.}

21. ALSO: OFF INTERP 37-29: SI: J/R: "It is not a play if there is
only: (1) an appeal; (2) a fake or feint of a throw; (3) an interruption of a
throw; (4) a step or several steps toward a base or runner that do not
result in an actual tag attempt; or (5) a dropped line drive or pop fly."
Ir301

• Play 32-29: R2: Bl slaps a grounder to the shortstop, who runs a few
steps toward second as R2 retreats. F6 then overthrows first. At TOT, Bl
had already touched first. Ruling: In FED, R2 scores, and Bl goes to third
(second play). In NCAA and OBR, Bl stops at second: The throw by F6
was the first play by an infielder.

Note 26: NCAAIOBR: If F6 had tagged R2, or attempted a tag, that would
have been his "first play, " and BI would be awarded third. Observe that the
runner at second did not advance on the play, so NCAA 8-30 AR 1 and the
Approved Ruling at OBR 7.05g AR do not apply.

+1. This should have settled things nicely.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JJ

+1. This should have settled things nicely.

How ... which part? 99% of that post is irrelevant.

[MD Longhorn]

I have a question regarding your interp of the rule and the way you're reading the MLBUM statement..

R1 on 1st. Pop fly to shallow center. F4 and F6 chase, F6 makes a diving catch. R1 tags legally, sees 2nd unoccupied and runs. F6 is slow to get up so R1 keeps going past 2nd. F6 throws to third to retire the runner and the ball goes out of play. Where do you place the runner?

[johnnyg08]

For the purpose of a the discussion, would you characterize the successful fielding of a ground ball by an infielder to be a play?

Let's say that F6 fields a routine ground ball and wings into DBT in an attempt to throw B/R out at 1B. Where would you place the batter/runner? Yes, 2B. Because on the first play by and infielder, the award is two bases time of pitch.

What about a soft ground ball to F6 who bobbles the ball with R1 stealing on the pitch and slides into 2B as B/R also touches and runs through 1B. F6, trying to be a hero, still makes an off balance throw to F3 and zings it into DBT. Now we have both R1 and BR having reached their advance base before the throw by F6. Now place the runners. I think we'd agree that we'd score R2 and put R1 on 3b because even though is was still the first play by an infielder, both the runner and b/r reached their advance base at the TOT.

Is that right? And can we apply the fielding of a ground ball not as a play, just as we would judge that catching a fly ball is not considered a "play" for the purpose of base awards?

I agree with others that the catch is not the first play. Do we agree on that or not?

Are you contending that a fly ball that is caught is a "play" and one that is fielded on the ground is not a "play?"

Just asking, not trying to argue or be confrontational. If I'm wrong on the above, certainly I'm open to learning just like most everybody else on here.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

For the purpose of a the discussion, would you characterize the successful fielding of a ground ball by an infielder to be a play?

No, obviously not.

What about a soft ground ball to F6 who bobbles the ball with R1 stealing on the pitch and slides into 2B as B/R also touches and runs through 1B. F6, trying to be a hero, still makes an off balance throw to F3 and zings it into DBT. Now we have both R1 and BR having reached their advance base before the throw by F6. Now place the runners. I think we'd agree that we'd score R2 and put R1 on 3b because even though is was still the first play by an infielder, both the runner and b/r reached their advance base at the TOT.

Yes - and I believe this ALSO applies to the OP and revised OP plays. All runners have reached their advance base at the TOT.

I agree with others that the catch is not the first play. Do we agree on that or not?

Not ... or at least not yet. That's the discussion at hand that I'm trying to be convinced of.

Are you contending that a fly ball that is caught is a "play" and one that is fielded on the ground is not a "play?"

I'm contending that that is how I've always ruled it and am asking to be convinced. (The main difference between a caught fly ball and the ground ball is that there is an OUT on the caught fly ball... To my mind ... so far... THAT is the play).

[NFump]

So J/R specifically mentions that a "dropped" line drive/fly ball is not a play. I noticed the MLBUM gives an example using a dropped fly also, another distinction between a dropped fly/line drive and a caught one.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jicecone

BRD 2009 pg 30. It don't get no easier:

I disagree - none of this answers the question. None of it.

AO 4-29: J/R: "It is a play if there is a (1) tag or tag try of a
runner, (2) tag or tag try of a base, (3) throw to another fielder in a
try to put out a runner, (4) rundown, or (5) balk. [original emphasis]
(29:F) {See § 3D.}

21. ALSO: OFF INTERP 37-29: SI: J/R: "It is not a play if there is
only: (1) an appeal; (2) a fake or feint of a throw; (3) an interruption of a
throw; (4) a step or several steps toward a base or runner that do not
result in an actual tag attempt; or (5) a dropped line drive or pop fly."
Ir301

First let me state that I'm not trying to be difficult, belligerent, or obtuse. I WANT to understand how this interpretation fits. And for the record, I think East is also trying to find out how you guys are getting to the interpretation, but is having to fight through an awful lot of unnecessary nonsense.

Here's the question in a nutshell.

Is a catch a play, WRT base awards

The ONLY evidence in favor that I've read, (other than "a catch is not a play - you must be an idiot") is the offhand MLBUM statement that alludes to a fielder with possession of the ball trying to retire someone. I submit that this alone is not enough - a fielder catching a ball gains possession while trying to retire someone. I grant that one can definitely read what you guys are reading into this rule ... but I also state that I can read the opposite... it's not clear.

The stuff quoted above doesn't cover this at all - no where does it say or even imply that a catch is not a play. In fact, "it is not a play if there is only a dropped fly ball or line drive" leads me to believe the opposite. If the rules makers were trying to say a catch was not a play, then this part of the rule would not need to say anything about it being dropped. It's like they are specifically separating a dropped ball from a caught ball by specifying that a DROPPED ball is not a play. If a caught ball is also not a play, why say Dropped at all?

Again - I'm not trying to be belligerent, negative, trollish, argumentative, or stupid. I'm trying to UNDERSTAND. None of the posted caseplays apply to THIS question. All the MLBUM statements refer back to the above, which don't define it either.

As an aside, I've emailed several local so-called rules authorities and honestly the response to the nutshell question has been mixed. No help there for me.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

The ONLY evidence in favor that I've read, (other than "a catch is not a play - you must be an idiot") is the offhand MLBUM statement that alludes to a fielder with possession of the ball trying to retire someone. I submit that this alone is not enough - a fielder catching a ball gains possession while trying to retire someone. I grant that one can definitely read what you guys are reading into this rule ... but I also state that I can read the opposite... it's not clear.

Here's another source. From J/R, chap. 2, section F:

"It is a play if there is a
(1) tag or tag try of a runner
(2) tag or tag try of a base
(3) throw to another fielder in a try to put out a runner
(4) rundown, or
(5) balk."

Notice that every action included as a "play" involves a throw, a tag, or tag try, with the (technical) exception of a balk. Fielding or catching a batted ball does not involve a throw, a tag, or a tag try, and is thus not a play for the purpose of the relevant rules.

Here's another way to think of it: a play under this definition always presupposes possession of the ball. You can't tag a runner or balk or throw the ball unless you have the ball. But fielding or catching the ball presupposes NOT possessing the ball, and thus cannot be a play in the relevant sense.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Here's another source. From J/R, chap. 2, section F:

"It is a play if there is a
(1) tag or tag try of a runner
(2) tag or tag try of a base
(3) throw to another fielder in a try to put out a runner
(4) rundown, or
(5) balk."

Notice that every action included as a "play" involves a throw, a tag, or tag try, with the (technical) exception of a balk. Fielding or catching a batted ball does not involve a throw, a tag, or a tag try, and is thus not a play for the purpose of the relevant rules.

Here's another way to think of it: a play under this definition always presupposes possession of the ball. You can't tag a runner or balk or throw the ball unless you have the ball. But fielding or catching the ball presupposes NOT possessing the ball, and thus cannot be a play in the relevant sense.

I still think it's bizarre that you can have an out without a play, but that looks solid to me.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I still think it's bizarre that you can have an out without a play, but that looks solid to me.

Is is possible that you're using the wrong meaning of the word "play" for the purpose of this this interpretation?

I think somebody else stated that "hey nice play" is not the same "play" that we're discussing.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Is is possible that you're using the wrong meaning of the word "play" for the purpose of this this interpretation?

I think somebody else stated that "hey nice play" is not the same "play" that we're discussing.

No, I've got that. I just think that an out-producing action by a fielder would have been a play since it produced an out. Not all plays produces outs and, apparently, not all outs are produced by plays. (Although the more I think about this it occurs to me that strike outs also aren't the result of plays.)

The thing I'm going to take away here is that plays can only start with a player already in possession of the ball.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Here's another source. From J/R, chap. 2, section F:

"It is a play if there is a
(1) tag or tag try of a runner
(2) tag or tag try of a base
(3) throw to another fielder in a try to put out a runner
(4) rundown, or
(5) balk."

Notice that every action included as a "play" involves a throw, a tag, or tag try, with the (technical) exception of a balk. Fielding or catching a batted ball does not involve a throw, a tag, or a tag try, and is thus not a play for the purpose of the relevant rules.

Here's another way to think of it: a play under this definition always presupposes possession of the ball. You can't tag a runner or balk or throw the ball unless you have the ball. But fielding or catching the ball presupposes NOT possessing the ball, and thus cannot be a play in the relevant sense.

I definitely understand the logic, and again I want to stress that I'm not just being argumentative for argument's sake. However, while the rulebook is often messy, it's usually good at using words like only, always, etc when that's what they meant. Ditto J/R and MLBUM. All of these are plays. I wish this quote said "It is only a play if...". As standing, it says these are plays, but doesn't definitively tell us these are the ONLY plays. OTOH - one point in this statement's favor is that other than the question at hand, I can think of no other "plays" that are not listed here - indicating that this MAY have been an attempt to list them all, despite missing the word "only".