Left Early on a Caught Fly

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

OK, Mr. UIC has seen the responses and believes me on the appeal sitch. He doesn't believe me on the base award of home. Can someone please elucidate?

Runners are assumed to have successfully reached all bases they are pass for the purposes of all base awards. The throw by F3 is a subsequent play by an infielder (the catch being the first play by the infielder). The award is 2 bases from the time of throw for a thrown ball out of play by an infielder other than his first play.

Since the runner was past second at the time of the throw, the base awarded is home.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

OK, Mr. UIC has seen the responses and believes me on the appeal sitch. He doesn't believe me on the base award of home. Can someone please elucidate?

MLBUM (I think they're for sale at Evans' site. They were at umpire,org for a while (got mine there). In the PBUC manual it's in section 6.11 Play 2. Buy it at the same place.


5.10 AWARD MADE FROM ORIGINAL BASE AFTER CATCH

A runner who is forced to return to a base after a catch must retouch his original base even though he may have been awarded additional bases on the play. The runner may retouch while the ball is dead (provided the runner does so before reaching the next base-see Section 5.11), and the award is then made from his original base. (See Casebook Comments following Official Baseball Rule 7.05(i).)

Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught. Right fielder's throw to first is wild and goes into the dugout. Runner is between second and third when the wild throw is made.

Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (two bases from his position at the time of the throw). However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base. Furthermore, because the runner was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return to first before reaching and touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first. However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base).

[MD Longhorn]

Thanks guys.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

OK, Mr. UIC has seen the responses and believes me on the appeal sitch. He doesn't believe me on the base award of home. Can someone please elucidate?

mike,

Since the wild throw was the first play by an infielder (Eastshire, the catch of the line drive does NOT qualify as a play in the context of this rule), it is a 2 base award for all viable runners from their position at the TOP.

The proper award for the R1 is 3B - not home & not 2B.

Edited to add: Rich's MLBUM cite does not pertain to your sitch becuase it involves a wild throw from an outfielder - which is always a TOT award.

JM

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Since the wild throw was the first play by an infielder

wrong.

[Fittske]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

MLBUM (I think they're for sale at Evans' site. They were at umpire,org for a while (got mine there). In the PBUC manual it's in section 6.11 Play 2. Buy it at the same place.


5.10 AWARD MADE FROM ORIGINAL BASE AFTER CATCH

A runner who is forced to return to a base after a catch must retouch his original base even though he may have been awarded additional bases on the play. The runner may retouch while the ball is dead (provided the runner does so before reaching the next base-see Section 5.11), and the award is then made from his original base. (See Casebook Comments following Official Baseball Rule 7.05(i).)

Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught. Right fielder's throw to first is wild and goes into the dugout. Runner is between second and third when the wild throw is made.

Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (two bases from his position at the time of the throw). However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base. Furthermore, because the runner was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return to first before reaching and touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first. However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base).

This sitch is only valid if the base runner attempts to return to retouch 1st base after the ball is thrown into DBT. you would not "automaticly" award 3rd beacuse your award should not tip the offense or defense that a possible infraction has been made. It is up to the offensive team to correct the base running mistake. The initial ruling should be an award of home, then if the base runner returns to retouch 1st, then you stop the runner @ 3rd hand have fun explaining to coaches what just happened :-)

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

wrong.

Mike,

Would you care to bet on that?

As you described it, the wild throw is absolutely the "first play by an infielder" and, since all runners, including the BR, had not reached an advance base at the time the wild throw was released, this is a 2-base award, TOP.

Yes, I'm sure. Do I need to provide you with cites, or can you look it up yourself?

JM

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

OK. I admit I significantly dumbed down the situation to get at the heart of the matter. (And Johnny, you're wrong - an appeal must be AN APPEAL. This was not - the touch was accidental, AND the fielder tried to go get the runner out after contact with the bag ... even more blatantly so in the REAL situation below).

Here's the actual situation that happened on Sunday.

Runner on first, stealing. Looping liner/low fly ball to F3. R1 keeps going past 2nd as F3 makes a shoestring catch, stumbles - hitting the bag on the way - then fires to third to get the out, throwing it over the fence.

I award home, DC requests time and comes out to argue that there was an appeal at 1st. I get with BU, he confirms we have the same thing - no appeal, contact with the bag was accidental. He continues to have a fit and eventually ejects himself.

UIC, who was there, tells me we blew the call three times - once on the touch of first (His words: "it's not an appeal, it's a force"), 2nd - the award should have been 2nd base, since "the runner legally had to return... and his two bases were 1st and 2nd; and 3rd for not calling the out on the appeal during the argument (DC never says, "runner left early" or any words I could stretch into a dead ball appeal - just "my fielder touched the bag", etc.)

I promised UIC I would post this here, and that I would post in this way - first as "what I was calling an accidental appeal", then with the full sitch. He promised he'd check here to see the "verdict". This was my first time working for this UIC.

And with no worry of offense, honestly ... my last. (Sorry sir ... I can't work in an area where the UIC's rules knowledge is this far off.)

Coach is an absolute idiot. Just make a proper appeal when the ball is put back into play. You get the out, take the run off the board and you get to stay in the game.

Mr. UIC, if you read this, please note. If you are going to be the "UIC", umpire in charge, please know the rules. If you don't know the rules, don't have such a position. As UIC, many times at a tournament, you are the final arbiter and interpreter of the rules. By not knowing the rules, even the simplest ones, you do a disservice to all officials and undermine their credibility when you demonstrate your ingorance of said rules. If you were to come up to me with such dribble, I would tell you to read the rule book, pound sand, get your gear and work the rest of the games in my spot.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Fittske

This sitch is only valid if the base runner attempts to return to retouch 1st base after the ball is thrown into DBT. you would not "automaticly" award 3rd beacuse your award should not tip the offense or defense that a possible infraction has been made. It is up to the offensive team to correct the base running mistake. The initial ruling should be an award of home, then if the base runner returns to retouch 1st, then you stop the runner @ 3rd hand have fun explaining to coaches what just happened :-)

Yeah ... that's exactly what he said. Award home, change if/when runner retouches.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Mike,

Would you care to bet on that?

As you described it, the wild throw is absolutely the "first play by an infielder" and, since all runners, including the BR, had not reached an advance base at the time the wild throw was released, this is a 2-base award, TOP.

Yes, I'm sure. Do I need to provide you with cites, or can you look it up yourself?

JM

Sure ... cites would be great. How are you saying all runners had not reached an advance base? BR is NOT a runner at the time the wild throw was released. BR is a retired runner - whose position can NOT be relevant any longer. And R1 had most assuredly advanced.

And how can the catch not be a play? If BR interfered with such a fielder, BR would be guilty of interfering with A PLAY...

[UmpJM]

Mike,

From the MLBUM:

5.1 PLAY OR ATTEMPTED PLAY

The following interpretation of "play or attempted play" applies to both awarding of bases (Official Baseball Rule 7.05(g)) and appeal plays (Official Baseball Rule 7.10):

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or
actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. (The fact that the runner is not out is not relevant.) A fake or a feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or an attempted play.

The point is, to make a "play" - as the word is used in 7.05(g) - the fielder must already HAVE possession of the ball. Gaining possession of the ball is NEVER a "play" for the purpose of the rule.

7.05 Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance—

...

(g) Two bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands, or into a bench (whether or not the ball rebounds into the field), or over or
under or through a field fence, or on a slanting part of the screen above the backstop, or remains in the meshes of a wire screen protecting spectators. The ball is dead.
When such wild throw is the first play by an infielder, the umpire, in awarding such bases, shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the ball was
pitched; ...

Again, as the rule clearly states, a throw by an infielder which is his first play results in a TOP award, not a TOT award.

JM

[UmpTTS43]

Glossed over that point in the OP. JM is correct.

Here is another example.

R1 less than 2 out. R1 off on the pitch on an apparent hit and run. B1 hits a slow blooper that F6 dives and catches. F6 fires to first to double up R1 but the ball goes out of play. At the time of the throw R1 was past second base. Ruling: R1 is awarded 3rd base due to first play by an infielder went out of play. Of course R1 must retouch prior to obtaining third.

[Fittske]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Mike,

From the MLBUM:



The point is, to make a "play" - as the word is used in 7.05(g) - the fielder must already HAVE possession of the ball. Gaining possession of the ball is NEVER a "play" for the purpose of the rule.



Again, as the rule clearly states, a throw by an infielder which is his first play results in a TOP award, not a TOT award.

JM

Ok correct me if I'm wrong....

But the key to 7.05(g)) is...... A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. In the origional sitch...The catch of the low line drive retires the batter runner... which is the first play by an infielder. The subsequent throw into DBT is the 2nd play, so the award is TOT not TOP.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Mike,

From the MLBUM:



The point is, to make a "play" - as the word is used in 7.05(g) - the fielder must already HAVE possession of the ball. Gaining possession of the ball is NEVER a "play" for the purpose of the rule.



Again, as the rule clearly states, a throw by an infielder which is his first play results in a TOP award, not a TOT award.

JM

Honestly, I've never heard anyone ever try to interpret this way. Nevermind that the only runner on the field has, in fact, advanceds a base... this "catching is not a play" is new. Looking forward to the guys who've been here a while to chime in. I admit the wording seems to lead that way ... but you'd think that at least ONCE in all this time, I'd have heard of this interpretation of that rule if that's what we're supposed to call, and I haven't.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by Fittske

Ok correct me if I'm wrong....

But the key to 7.05(g)) is...... A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. In the origional sitch...The catch of the low line drive retires the batter runner... which is the first play by an infielder. The subsequent throw into DBT is the 2nd play, so the award is TOT not TOP.

Fittske,

I'd be happy to correct you, becuase you are wrong.

At the risk of repeating myself, the MLBUM passage I cited before says the fileder must have possession of the ball in order to make a "play" as the word is used in 7.05(g).

The point is, to make a "play" - as the word is used in 7.05(g) - the fielder must already HAVE possession of the ball. Gaining possession of the ball is NEVER a "play" for the purpose of the rule, even if the act of gaining possession results in an out.

JM