Little League - grounds for forfeit

[Berkut]

I am still confused as to what it is about these other programs that make such better ballplayers?

Do they have professional coaches or something? What?

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Berkut

I am still confused as to what it is about these other programs that make such better ballplayers?

Do they have professional coaches or something? What?

Four advantages 1) the business of making money {ala the league sponsor}, 2) parents who spend lots of money on their "kids" happiness, 3) a competitive "lure" that gaining an edge or shortcut will lead to a WIN over someone else that is well worth it, and 4) the knowledge that no one will investigate or care about the scandalous price or means of victory.

Why hell, just take a look at these four advantages I listed above and compare them to the current University of Southern California football program. Apply the same concepts to any team sport.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by SAump

Four advantages 1) the business of making money {ala the league sponsor}, 2) parents who spend lots of money on their "kids" happiness, 3) a competitive "lure" that gaining an edge or shortcut will lead to a WIN over someone else that is well worth it, and 4) the knowledge that no one will investigate or care about the scandalous price or means of victory.

Why hell, just take a look at these four advantages I listed above and compare them to the current University of Southern California football program. Apply the same concepts to any team sport.

And this is a joke or a respectable point of view? You tell me.

Have you noticed that baseball is a competitive and extremely high-paying profession? Why is it that you think we'll somehow compete with the countries who make a dedicated effort at training ballplayers by allowing our ballplayers to be trained at the snail's pace that Little League offers? And why do you mock those who make that effort at competing in this richly rewarding profession, which can also land a youngster in a fine university in which to gain his education?

When a young man has the training to play the game of baseball, he is in daily pursuit of a sound mind and sound body that is required of a pro ballplayer. Well, irrespective of whether he makes it to the big leagues, he can play it perhaps in D-I, and the lower pro ranks into his mid-20s, when his fit mind is capable of making sound choices, and his fit body will help him lead a more rewarding life.

Why do you mock people who make the necessary effort and expense to train their son for this kind of life? Some of these kids truly love the game, and if they're properly trained at an early enough age, they can go all the way to the top or close to it. Those kids should know that their only hope is to be trained to play the actual game at an earlier age. Little League and your rosy approach is perfectly fine for the ones that will be finished playing at 12 or 13.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

And this is a joke or a respectable point of view? You tell me.

No need to repeat what has already been stated twice. "Show me the money first" fits the select travel league mentality. Money is a decisive factor select travel teams cannot do without, not population, nor weather, nor D-I colleges.

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

Have you noticed that baseball is a competitive and extremely high-paying profession? Why is it that you think we'll somehow compete with the countries who make a dedicated effort at training ballplayers by allowing our ballplayers to be trained at the snail's pace that Little League offers? And why do you mock those who make that effort at competing in this richly rewarding profession, which can also land a youngster in a fine university in which to gain his education?

Why do you blame LL for the failure of your superior select travel league, NCAA college ball, the MiLB farm clubs and MLB to place an American team in the WBC final? BTW, what percentage of WBC players played 8-12 year old LL ball?

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

Why do you mock people who make the necessary effort and expense to train their son for this kind of life? Some of these kids truly love the game, and if they're properly trained at an early enough age, they can go all the way to the top or close to it. Those kids should know that their only hope is to be trained to play the actual game at an earlier age. Little League and your rosy approach is perfectly fine for the ones that will be finished playing at 12 or 13.

How can Italy and the Netherlands each match the resources of MLB? BTW, the L-astros could use the pitching I saw on TV when Australia, Canada, Italy, the Netherlands and South Africa make it into the WBC with the help of a few 2nd rate American players.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Why do I blame LL Baseball for for the failure of our superior select travel league, NCAA college ball, the MiLB farm clubs and MLB to place an American team in the WBC final? W ... T ... F ??

I get it.

I've been suckered into an exchange with you, like you are a reasonable, rational person, who uses logic and cogent analysis in your arguments.

You got me.

[I hope he lets us know when his mind returns from wherever it is traveling.]

[Rich Ives]

Baseball is extemely high paying - IF you're one of the top ten or so on a team.

300 extremely high paying jobes in MLB.

5,000,000 (probably more) or so kids in 12U around the world.

Really good odds- yes?

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Berkut

I am still confused as to what it is about these other programs that make such better ballplayers?

Do they have professional coaches or something? What?

My apologies for going off-topic during my previous two rants about the quality of LL baseball above. One last comment about the original thread.

Your telling me your son entered a baseball game as the starting pitcher, then re-entered the same baseball game as one of the middle-relief pitchers, and finally re-re-entered the same baseball game as the closing pitcher and you do not find anything wrong with it?

Wait you know there is something wrong with it, but you feel that the mistake your coach made should have been explained or corrected by the umpires on the field because it may potentially cost your team a victory, and that a protest by the other team to the tournament committee was unnecessary?

Wait, you realize the umpires and your coaches are all dumb and that the opposing team's protest was necessary, but you actually believe these same events went unnoticed in another ballgame in the same tournament, so that the ruling committee should support your decision to throw out the protest?

Shhssssh!

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by SAump

My apologies for going off-topic during my previous two rants about the quality of LL baseball above. One last comment about the original thread.

Your telling me your son entered a baseball game as the starting pitcher, then re-entered the same baseball game as one of the middle-relief pitchers, and finally re-re-entered the same baseball game as the closing pitcher and you do not find anything wrong with it?

No, he entered the game as the starting pitcher, then he played outfield the second inning, then pitched the third inning, then player 1st base, then sat, then played...short stop?

I dunno. And no, at the time is seemed unusual, but they move kids around all the time from position to position, so it didn't seem all that odd. But really, how is *my* finding anything wrong or not relevant? I am just a parent, I have no idea what the sub rules are (or didn't at the time).

Wait you know there is something wrong with it, but you feel that the mistake your coach made should have been explained or corrected by the umpires on the field because it may potentially cost your team a victory, and that a protest by the other team to the tournament committee was unnecessary?

I think the mistake the coach made was pretty minor, and did not warrant a game being forfeit. No more or less. I do think if that is the rule, the umpires should know about it, and further, I think that even given that it is a rule, it is a pretty petty thing to go get a forfeit over.

Wait, you realize the umpires and your coaches are all dumb and that the opposing team's protest was necessary, but you actually believe these same events went unnoticed in another ballgame in the same tournament, so that the ruling committee should support your decision to throw out the protest?

Shhssssh!

Support my decision? It isn't my decision, what are you talking about?

And no, the fact that it happened in another game is not really germane, except to the point that it is pretty clear that lots of people are apparently not aware of the rules, and that is people who SHOULD be aware.

I don't think you can find anywhere in this thread where I have made any of the arguments you have ascribed to me, and I am rather baffled at the hostility - did I step into the middle of something else?

Here is what I do think:

1. The error was minor, and had no effect on the outcomes of the game.
2. Given that, it seemed to me that the penalty, foreiture, was excessive.
3. Now, finding out that the process that should have been followed was clearly NOT followed, it bothers me even more that they are going to be extremely anal about enforcing one rule, while at the same time they ignore a bunch of other rules about the process of appeal/protest.

But really, it is all water under the bridge now. The issue is dead, and who cares anymore?

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Berkut

No, he entered the game as the starting pitcher, then he played outfield the second inning, then pitched the third inning, then player 1st base, then sat, then played...short stop?

I dunno. And no, at the time is seemed unusual, but they move kids around all the time from position to position, so it didn't seem all that odd. But really, how is *my* finding anything wrong or not relevant? I am just a parent, I have no idea what the sub rules are (or didn't at the time).

I think the mistake the coach made was pretty minor, and did not warrant a game being forfeit. No more or less. I do think if that is the rule, the umpires should know about it, and further, I think that even given that it is a rule, it is a pretty petty thing to go get a forfeit over.

Support my decision? It isn't my decision, what are you talking about?

And no, the fact that it happened in another game is not really germane, except to the point that it is pretty clear that lots of people are apparently not aware of the rules, and that is people who SHOULD be aware.

I don't think you can find anywhere in this thread where I have made any of the arguments you have ascribed to me, and I am rather baffled at the hostility - did I step into the middle of something else?

Here is what I do think:

1. The error was minor, and had no effect on the outcomes of the game.
2. Given that, it seemed to me that the penalty, foreiture, was excessive.
3. Now, finding out that the process that should have been followed was clearly NOT followed, it bothers me even more that they are going to be extremely anal about enforcing one rule, while at the same time they ignore a bunch of other rules about the process of appeal/protest.

But really, it is all water under the bridge now. The issue is dead, and who cares anymore?

Compare this to LL Pitching regulations
"(b) Junior, Senior, and Big League Divisions only: A pitcher remaining in the game, but moving to a different position, can return as a pitcher anytime in the remainder of the game, but only once per game.
(g) The official pitch count recorder should inform the umpire-in-chief when a pitcher has delivered his/her maximum limit of pitches for the game, as noted in Regulation VI (c). The umpire-in-chief will inform the pitcher’s manager that the pitcher must be removed in accordance with Regulation VI (c). However, the failure by the pitch count recorder to notify the umpire-in-chief, and/or the failure of the umpire-in-chief to notify the manager, does not relieve the manager of his/her responsibility to remove a pitcher when that pitcher is no longer eligible.
(h) Violation of any section of this regulation can result in protest of the game in which it occurs. Protest shall be made in accordance with Playing Rule 4.19."

http://blogs.rep-am.com/strikezone/f...tion-Guide.pdf

BTW, b, bold g and h have been in the books for well over 40 years.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Berkut

I dunno. And no, at the time is seemed unusual, but they move kids around all the time from position to position, so it didn't seem all that odd. But really, how is *my* finding anything wrong or not relevant? I am just a parent, I have no idea what the sub rules are (or didn't at the time).

But any coach who is responsible for teaching the rules should be aware of this quite simple rule. If the coach doesn't know this, what else doesn't he know? A coach won't know ALL the rules... but he should know the routine ones. And you wonder why we say LL has inferior coaches?

Originally Posted by Berkut

I think the mistake the coach made was pretty minor, and did not warrant a game being forfeit. No more or less. I do think if that is the rule, the umpires should know about it, and further, I think that even given that it is a rule, it is a pretty petty thing to go get a forfeit over.

Fortunately ... (or unfortunately for your team) it's not up to you. You think it ... so what. This is NOT a minor mistake. You don't think there's a significant advantage in letting a kid rest that long between innings pitched? You're nuts. You don't think there's a significant chance at long-term damage from having a kid pitch hard, then not pitch, then pitch again, then not, then again? Again, you're nuts. there are reasons for these rules... and reasons the penalty is what it is. This is not "petty" at all.

Originally Posted by Berkut

Here is what I do think:

1. The error was minor, and had no effect on the outcomes of the game.
2. Given that, it seemed to me that the penalty, foreiture, was excessive.
3. Now, finding out that the process that should have been followed was clearly NOT followed, it bothers me even more that they are going to be extremely anal about enforcing one rule, while at the same time they ignore a bunch of other rules about the process of appeal/protest.

1. Way wrong, on both counts. 2) First off, the penalty is KNOWN, and not subject to your opinion... second, it's entirely appropriate.
3) You have a point there, and I recommend you pursue it.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

But any coach who is responsible for teaching the rules should be aware of this quite simple rule. If the coach doesn't know this, what else doesn't he know? A coach won't know ALL the rules... but he should know the routine ones. And you wonder why we say LL has inferior coaches?

Fortunately ... (or unfortunately for your team) it's not up to you. You think it ... so what. This is NOT a minor mistake. You don't think there's a significant advantage in letting a kid rest that long between innings pitched? You're nuts. You don't think there's a significant chance at long-term damage from having a kid pitch hard, then not pitch, then pitch again, then not, then again? Again, you're nuts. there are reasons for these rules... and reasons the penalty is what it is. This is not "petty" at all.

1. Way wrong, on both counts. 2) First off, the penalty is KNOWN, and not subject to your opinion... second, it's entirely appropriate.
3) You have a point there, and I recommend you pursue it.

Meh, at this point winning the dispute is considerably worse than doing nothing and letting it go.

My point through all this was trying to find out if in fact that penalty (forefeiture of the game) was the "norm" for this kind of violation. The impression I got from most posters was that it was not at all typical. Now I hear from you that it IS typical, and indeed is in fact the normal response.

I don't really care to defend whether or not I am "nuts" or not, mostly I think I am just ignorant. Which is, luckily, considerably more treatable at least.

So - is this simply the normal response to the infraction? You used an illegal pitcher, you forfeit the game?

[umpjim]

If this was a LL postseason tournament goverened under the T rules in the back of the LL Green Book then no this was not normal or the correct response to this infraction. Only the tournament comittee in Williamsport can forfeit a game and for an illegal pitcher the normal response would be suspension of the manager since they do not want the kids to pay for the managers incompetence ( or his lack of time, training to understand the postseason rules ). This actually might be jugded an improper sub in which case there is no penalty. Egregious violations might cause a forfeit but Williamsport still must issue it. I don't know if you were in a LL post season tournament covered under the T pages rules. If you were the tournament officials and your coaches were poorly served by whoever was in charge. Whoever was in charge might have been poorly served by whoever put them in charge.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by umpjim

If this was a LL postseason tournament goverened under the T rules in the back of the LL Green Book then no this was not normal or the correct response to this infraction. Only the tournament comittee in Williamsport can forfeit a game and for an illegal pitcher the normal response would be suspension of the manager since they do not want the kids to pay for the managers incompetence ( or his lack of time, training to understand the postseason rules ). This actually might be jugded an improper sub in which case there is no penalty. Egregious violations might cause a forfeit but Williamsport still must issue it. I don't know if you were in a LL post season tournament covered under the T pages rules. If you were the tournament officials and your coaches were poorly served by whoever was in charge. Whoever was in charge might have been poorly served by whoever put them in charge.

Thanks for the response, I appreciate it.