Little League - grounds for forfeit

[Berkut]

OK, I am a basketball and football official, and have no experience officiating baseball. So I am coming at this from a parent standpoint.

During my sons recent 10 year old LL game, he pitched in the 1st inning, then

A) Played another position the 2nd inning, or
B) Sat the second inning.

I don't recall which, but I think he played another position.

Then he pitched in the third inning. This was planned by the coaches, they try to get everyone playing difference positions, so they plan out the shuffle pre-game. So my son was planned to pitch the 1/3/6 innings, with another kid pitching 2/5 and another kid pitching 4. Could jsut as easily done 1/2, 3/4, 6 of course.

So, apparently it turns out this is against the rules - a pitcher is not allowed to pitch in non-consecutive innings. Fair enough - the coaches screwed up.

My question is - is this actually grounds for appealing the game, and then having the game be forfeit on the basis that the pitcher should not have been allowed to pitch in the 3rd inning?

How much discretion is typical when it comes to a decision by tournament officials to force a team to forfeit a game? Is tic cut and dried - you broke the rule, so you MUST forfeit, or is there some judgment involved?

My sons team won the game by a handy margin, and the other coaches went to the board or whatever, and we just found out that the game would be forfeit as a result of the illegal pitching.

To my admittedly biased and largely uninformed mind, this seems like a rather drastic reaction to an honest mistake that really had no bearing on the outcome of the game. Nobody complained at the time, nobody brought up up to a tournament director when my son went back in in the third, nobody said anything...until we find out that we have forfeited the game.

[kylejt]

What you described was using an illegal pitcher, and can draw a forfeit.

The manager should have known better. So should all his coaches.

The plate umpire should have caught this.

The other manager should have pointed it out beforehand.

The scorekeeper should have pointed it out.

Man, there's a lot of blame to spread around here. The adults really goofed it up for the kids, hunh? Berkut, you're manager needs a good swift kick for not knowing this elementary rule, as should all of the above adults. Throw in the folks who put him in charge, too. Yow, how does this even happen?

[Berkut]

Well, the managers are just some parents who volunteer to coach. Yeah, they probably should have known better, but they didn't. I guess they do now.

I am just rather surprised that 10 year old LL baseball is such serious business that a trivial mistake like this warrants some adults appealing a game and getting a forfeit win out of it.

[txump81]

LL Tournament Rules 4c. Pitchers once removed from the mound may not return as pitchers.

And the proper way to protest the violation along with the penalty:

B.
The use of an ineligible pitcher;
Ineligibility under this rule applies to violations of Tournament Playing
Rule 4. If an ineligible pitcher delivers one or more pitches to a batter,
that game may be subject to protest and action by the Tournament Committee
in Williamsport, subject to the following conditions:
T-12
1. At any time before the umpire(s) leave the playing field, a formal
(verbal) protest must be made to the umpire-in-chief by the manager
or coach.
2. The umpire-in-chief must immediately consult with the Tournament
Director or District Administrator.
3. Either the umpire-in-chief, Tournament Director or District Administrator
will call the Regional Headquarters at this time.
4. The Regional Director (or his/her designated agent) will contact the
Tournament Committee in Williamsport. The decision of the Tournament
Committee shall be final and binding. NOTE: The Manager is
responsible for verifying the accuracy of the pitching record on the
eligibility affidavit.

Without knowing all the details(when the protest happened, etc.), it is hard to say. The protest should have happened immediately after the game before the umpires left the field and the decision would have come from the Region HQ. We had 2 protests in our District tournament this year(1 MPR, 1 Ineligible pitcher (she pitched 1 pitch in her 8th inning)), but neither resulted in a forfeit-just manager ejections and suspensions.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Berkut

I am just rather surprised that 10 year old LL baseball is such serious business that a trivial mistake like this warrants some adults appealing a game and getting a forfeit win out of it.

You are a Football and Basketball official and you find this surprising in today's sports world? Come on now! This was a tournment not a family picnic baseball game. And this mentality is not limited to baseball either.

All I can say is welcome to parenthood and do your best to keep your son as level headed as you are. Too many people nowdays think sports is a way of life, not just a game.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by jicecone

You are a Football and Basketball official and you find this surprising in today's sports world? Come on now! This was a tournment not a family picnic baseball game. And this mentality is not limited to baseball either.

All I can say is welcome to parenthood and do your best to keep your son as level headed as you are. Too many people nowdays think sports is a way of life, not just a game.

Hehe, good point. Lord knows this is hardly limited to baseball by any means.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by txump81

Without knowing all the details(when the protest happened, etc.), it is hard to say. The protest should have happened immediately after the game before the umpires left the field and the decision would have come from the Region HQ. We had 2 protests in our District tournament this year(1 MPR, 1 Ineligible pitcher (she pitched 1 pitch in her 8th inning)), but neither resulted in a forfeit-just manager ejections and suspensions.

Interesting - I don't really know more details, as the information I have comes from the coaches - but I was at the game, it was my son who pitched that third inning, and certainly I do not recall anyone saying anything about it at the time - but after the game could be possible.

I certainly do not think this went beyond the immediate organizers though - unless I am mistaken. Maybe they decided to avoid "manager ejections and suspensions" by just agreeing to the forfeit or something?

[umpjim]

I wasn't there but in our District tournament we had a catcher go to pitcher illegally. It was caught by the scorekeeper after 1 pitch. (They get busy sometimes). The local tournament personnel thought it was an illegal pitcher and called Waco for the forfeit ( I would have thought the same thing). Waco said that that was treated as an illegal sub and change him out. Only Williamsport can forfeit. Make a phone call. You might have been sandbagged by the local guys or they were untrained as were your coaches. Not pointing fingers because the LL tournament process requires a lot of work from people who may not have the time to digest all the finer points.

[txump81]

Originally Posted by umpjim

Only Williamsport can forfeit.

+1. In 1 of our protests(MP violation), the coach protested and the offending coach admitted when questioned the kid didn't bat. The umpires told the coach he was out for 2 games and were headed for the exit when the TD stepped in. They made the call to Region and the suspension was issued.

The Region or above must issue penalties and decisions on protests involving ineligible players and MP from my experience. All that to say-even though everyone knows what will happen, it must come from above.

From what I have learned, the only thing that can be issued at the local level is a suspension due to behavior.

And as kylejt said, it is EVERYONE'S responsibility to prevent an ineligible player from playing-manager, scorekeeper, umpire, opposing manager. How did no one notice this happening?

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Berkut

OK, I am a basketball and football official, and have no experience officiating baseball. So I am coming at this from a parent standpoint.

During my sons recent 10 year old LL game,


My sons team won the game by a handy margin, and the other coaches went to the board or whatever, and we just found out that the game would be forfeit as a result of the illegal pitching.

IMO, MAJOR problem in youth sports. This is 10 yr. old baseball WHO CARES who wins.

no matter what sport at that age it should be about teaching / developing NOT who wins and loses.

It's the ADULTS who filed the protest to win a GAME in which they got drilled.


What ever happened to the good ole days of pick-up games where we made up our own rules / no umpires / no coaches and simply played.

Pete Booth

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by txump81

And as kylejt said, it is EVERYONE'S responsibility to prevent an ineligible player from playing-manager, scorekeeper, umpire, opposing manager. How did no one notice this happening?

So, at the game last night, we found out that what happened was this.

The best team in the tournament (call them Team A), during the first game (they beat us handily) had their pitchers play split innings, because they didn't know it was against the rules. Apparently our coaches thought "Hey, that seems like a good idea, give the pitchers some rest between pitching" so they thought they would try it.

So now it turns out that the team that just appealed our game (Team B), and got themselves a win, are also appealing the game against Team A as well. Of course, they did not know it was illegal either at the time of the game, and did not protest at the time of their game against Team A. But hey, they got the forfeit against us even though they didn't protest at the time, so why not? That will improve their overall record from 1-5 to 3-3! Not bad!

Of course some of the other parents on our team are now asking why WE don't appeal our game against Team A, since apparently they broke the same rule. I was very proud of our coaches when they said that Team A beat us because their kids played better, not because of some pitching subs, and there was no way they are interested in or would accept a forfeit win under those circumstances.

Sigh. Such serious business it all is...

I just hope we get to play Team B in the playoffs...

[johnnyg08]

Rather than claiming ignorance, why don't you/they ask before you do something like that. If nobody's ever done it before, in baseball, chances are it's illegal, not some new idea that nobody's thought of.

[PeteBooth]

Better idea: Play team Z FOR FUN and have a good time. After the game let the kids swim and have a barbecue

FWIW Ask the KIDS what they want.

hey guys we can play an INTENSE game OR

we can go to the local park play against team Z for fun and THEN go swimming and have a barbecue

In the scheme of things is it really that BIG of deal to beat team B?

Youth Sports is simply OUT OF CONTROL

Pete Booth

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Berkut

So, at the game last night, we found out that what happened was this.

The best team in the tournament (call them Team A), during the first game (they beat us handily) had their pitchers play split innings, because they didn't know it was against the rules. Apparently our coaches thought "Hey, that seems like a good idea, give the pitchers some rest between pitching" so they thought they would try it.

So now it turns out that the team that just appealed our game (Team B), and got themselves a win, are also appealing the game against Team A as well. Of course, they did not know it was illegal either at the time of the game, and did not protest at the time of their game against Team A. But hey, they got the forfeit against us even though they didn't protest at the time, so why not? That will improve their overall record from 1-5 to 3-3! Not bad!

Of course some of the other parents on our team are now asking why WE don't appeal our game against Team A, since apparently they broke the same rule. I was very proud of our coaches when they said that Team A beat us because their kids played better, not because of some pitching subs, and there was no way they are interested in or would accept a forfeit win under those circumstances.

Sigh. Such serious business it all is...

I just hope we get to play Team B in the playoffs...

Tournament? Playoffs coming up? Just what situation are we discussing here?

And BTW, how could two different coach groups go through an entire season and not know pitchers can't return. It's in the rule book in more than one place (Reg VI(b), 3.03(3), and T-Rule 4(c)).

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by Berkut

Well, the managers are just some parents who volunteer to coach.

There you have it! The Little League system of youth baseball is the reason that America produces an ever-declining number of professional ballplayers.