First Forfeit

[Boiler14]

Officiated for 20 years and we had to do the unthinkable Sunday. I was doing an AAU tourney that was used mostly for college coaches to get a look at some players.

This coach is fairly young and she played her freshman year at a national powerhouse D1 school before transferring. The team she actually had at this tourney was her high school team she coaches.

Here is the scene: Her team is up 23-17 with 1:30 to go in the first half. Fouls are 11 to 7, but they are against her.

I am the C as FT's are being administered to the other team. My partner is getting an ear full from her. She is complaining that we have called 40 fouls (honest...she used this number twice) and this isn't a free throw tournament. She goes on about all of this and my partner says enough, puts out the "stop sign" and she continues.

My parnter T's her up after the second FT is completed. He then tells her kindly you must be seated. I heard her tell him she isn't going to.

I traded positions with him so he can get away. He tells me as I'm passing "she will be seated". I tell her she has to be seated and she tells me she isn't going to. This goes on a couple times. Now I'm getting the same story my partner got about this is not a FT tourney, we raised a lot of money doing car washes to come here, etc. Oh...and we have called 40 fouls, too.

I told her you will have to take a seat before we throw the ball in or you will be getting a second T. She wants me to go get the tourney supervisor which I tell her I am not doing, but she is more than happy to go if she wishes. She is not going to go and insist I do. I remind her what will happen if she gets the second T and she tells me she won't leave. Finally the second FT ends and I look at her assistant (who is her father and hasn't said one word this whole time) and asked if he was going to help me here. He ignored me. I looked at my partner at the division line with the ball and say, "Okay then."

Now she gets #2 and has to leave.

But...she is not going. So, I hand it to the lead who now has to hear it all. The only difference is he was nice enough to go get the supervisor. While he's gone my other partner and myself remove ourselves from near the bench. The opposing coach comes to us and asks us what we are going to do. My partner says we really don't want to forfeit the game because it isn't fair to the girls of both team, but especially his. He told us he was fine with it if she didn't leave. (This was a loser bracket game and both teams were only going to play one more game win or lose).

Well, one of the supers comes in and tells her that she has to leave. She said I'll sit, but she wasn't leaving. I piped in with that option has come and gone. The super gives her one minute and she doesn't start leaving until we say "ball game". Once again...too late on her part.

As an aside, her father finally spoke. Once the supervisor got there he came up to the three of us and wanted to tell us about ''all his years of being around basketball and ...........". I kindly cut him off and said you had your chance to speak and you didn't help the situation at all so go sit down.

It was a classic case of defiance you expect from your toddlers.

Her biggest complaint about the T's was she never used any profanity.

This from a coach who was LEADING.

I was the U2 so I had no role in the decision to forfeit. That was the R who served the first T.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Boiler14

1) My partner T's her up after the second FT is completed. He then tells her kindly you must be seated. I heard her tell him she isn't going to.

2) I traded positions with him so he can get away. He tells me as I'm passing "she will be seated". I tell her she has to be seated and she tells me she isn't going to. This goes on a couple times.

3) I told her you will have to take a seat before we throw the ball in or you will be getting a second T.

4) I remind her what will happen if she gets the second T and she tells me she won't leave.

5) Finally the second FT ends and I look at her assistant (who is her father and hasn't said one word this whole time) and asked if he was going to help me here.

Now she gets #2 and has to leave.

But...she is not going. So, I hand it to the lead who now has to hear it all. The only difference is he was nice enough to go get the supervisor.

Well, one of the supers comes in and tells her that she has to leave. She said I'll sit, but she wasn't leaving. I piped in with that option has come and gone. The super gives her one minute and she doesn't start leaving until we say "ball game". Once again...too late on her part.

Well, let's count them up.....

According to #'s 1 to 5 above, you and your partner collectively gave the coach SIX warnings before you did anything about it. SIX WARNINGS! The coach basically told you to go f**k yourself after each of those SIX warnings. Finally, she gets the second technical foul that she should have got way back after the first warning, the second warning for sure. So......now she goes ahead and does exactly what she told you she was going to do. She refuses to leave. And your R still refuses to take care of bidness. You had to go get the site supervisor to do your job for you.

Sorry, but you collectively let that coach get away with bloody murder. The R literally ran away from his responsibilities. Not a good job at all imo. The R was looking for excuses not to do what he was being paid to do..control the game.

Six warnings?

[brandan89]

I agree with JR, you played around with her and gave her too many warnings. 1 warning, possibly 2 then be finished with her. T her up and send her or the game in your case on its way.

[Hartsy]

Sounds about like how I would have handled it. I didn't read anything in your post that would have drawn an immediate T from me, either for the first one or the second (though #2 was close). She was given enough time to calm down and end the spectacle. When it was clear she would not comply, a forfeit is all you had left.

Glad it was you and not me!

[Dan_ref]

I don't want to pile on but I agree with JR also. Entirely too much talking.

[Boiler14]

Hmmm....I really wasn't expecting to defend our actions. I was just telling a story of something unusual that happened.

I really wasn't counting up "warnings". Nothing was going on except FT's being shot so the game wasn't being delayed. She was told to stop the first time and didn't. I told her she had to sit before the ball was put back in play and didn't. Yes...I may have told her she had to sit down a few times, but there was no need to whack her until play was ready to resume. That is just my opinion in this case.

I don't think the coach got away with "bloody murder"....or any felony. She never yelled, stomped, cried, cussed...or listened to instructions, which was her downfall. Trust me, if she was throwing a fit like it must have been implied things would have happened much quicker.

I guess this just tells me that unless you are actually at the situation you really can't assume you would do anything different. Putting things in words doesn't tell you what the emotion (or lack thereof) of any situation described and that is an important element.

I say this sincerely because I really can't imagine many other veterans would have dumped her much quicker based on what happened. We gave her ample time to comply (without delaying the game) which is alot better than quick trigger in my book.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Boiler14

1) I really wasn't counting up "warnings". Nothing was going on except FT's being shot so the game wasn't being delayed. She was told to stop the first time and didn't. I told her she had to sit before the ball was put back in play and didn't. Yes...I may have told her she had to sit down a few times, but there was no need to whack her until play was ready to resume. That is just my opinion in this case.

2) I guess this just tells me that unless you are actually at the situation you really can't assume you would do anything different. Putting things in words doesn't tell you what the emotion (or lack thereof) of any situation described and that is an important element.
I say this sincerely because I really can't imagine many other veterans would have dumped her much quicker based on what happened. We gave her ample time to comply (without delaying the game) which is alot better than quick trigger in my book.

1) Nothing was going on? Read NFHS rule 10-5NOTES1 lately? After losing their coaching box privileges, the head coach is not supposed to be on their feet during FT's, unless it's to do some coaching duties that are explicitly laid out in the rules. As far as I can see, b!tching at the officials isn't one of the coaching duties listed. Loss of coaching box privileges applies to free throws.

2) I don't need to be at this situation to have my opinion. Reading about it is enough. I'm a veteran. I wouldn't dream of ever letting a coach get away with that kind of nonsense. She dared you multi-times to follow up on your warnings, and neither you or your partner had the...um...testicular fortitude to stand up to her. Why warn her at all if you're not gonna do anything about it? By your own admission, there was at least SIX warnings given out, and absolutely nothing was done after the first FIVE. No wonder she ignored you. If you didn't follow up on your first bunch of warnings, why would she expect that you'd all-of-a-sudden decide to say "Enuff's enuff".

You wanted comments. You got mine. Sorry, but that's my opinion. I really didn't expect you to like or agree with it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Boiler14

I was the U2 so I had no role in the decision to forfeit. That was the R who served the first T.

This statement sparked my interest. Not because you simply said it, but you are apart of the crew. When a decision like this is made you need to also take some responsibility for it. Most assignors I know want 3 Referee on the game, not 3 U2s. You should always try to take a leadership role even if you are not assigned the Referee. I will tell you if this decision was made in a real game, you would be held equally responsible. Just because you are a U2 does not mean you cannot offer opinions or even offer. This is another case where we let the rules get in the way of reality.

Peace

[Mark Padgett]

One thing I have used in the past at "rec" games to get results from reluctant coaches after their first T is to tell them that if they don't knock it off, they will be ejected, we will end the game and tell all the kids the reason they can't play any more basketball today is because that coach couldn't behave themselves and to be sure to tell their parents how they feel about that.

Of course, this doesn't have real "teeth" if they have an assistant who can take over.

[Smitty]

I think the situation was handled just fine. You were trying to do everything you could do to avoid a forfeit. I just got done working one of those big invitational tournaments where there were dozens of college coaches watching the games to plan their recruiting. The last thing you want is to have a forfeit when you've got coaches who have travelled from all over the country to watch these kids play. That's what it's all about - and the assignors certainly don't want you to declare a forfeit unless you've done everything you can do to avoid it.

It's easy to point fingers and say you'd do it differently when you weren't there. I know it would be a tough spot and it was unfortunate that it had to overshadow the game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Smitty

I think the situation was handled just fine. You were trying to do everything you could do to avoid a forfeit. I just got done working one of those big invitational tournaments where there were dozens of college coaches watching the games to plan their recruiting. The last thing you want is to have a forfeit when you've got coaches who have travelled from all over the country to watch these kids play. That's what it's all about - and the assignors certainly don't want you to declare a forfeit unless you've done everything you can do to avoid it.

It's easy to point fingers and say you'd do it differently when you weren't there. I know it would be a tough spot and it was unfortunate that it had to overshadow the game.

I think you are missing the point. No one said the forfeit was not warranted. People are saying that the amount of warnings and passing on bad behavior might have lead to the over all situation. I agree that summer or off season games we try to be a little more tolerant. Even in a camp setting, I know the campers want to see action taken when coaches behave out of control.

Peace

[Adam]

Maybe, just maybe, if you popped her as soon as she refused to sit down the first time, she'd have known you were serious about the whole "You gotta leave" thing and she'd have left.

Maybe not.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Smitty

That's what it's all about - and the assignors certainly don't want you to declare a forfeit unless you've done everything you can do to avoid it.

I'm an assignor. I know of very few assignors, if any, that would approve of the way that this situation was handled.

When any coach directly challenges you like this one did, you're gonna have to do something about it. That's part of your job. You can't walk away from that responsibility.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

When a decision like this is made you need to also take some responsibility for it. Most assignors I know want 3 Referee on the game, not 3 U2s. You should always try to take a leadership role even if you are not assigned the Referee. I will tell you if this decision was made in a real game, you would be held equally responsible. Just because you are a U2 does not mean you cannot offer opinions or even offer. This is another case where we let the rules get in the way of reality.

True dat.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Smitty

I think the situation was handled just fine. You were trying to do everything you could do to avoid a forfeit.

I'm thinking the coaches know why their players are at these exposure things just as the officials do and they are at least as obligated as we are to keep the games moving so the coaches can see their players.

In the OP's sitch I read that this coach decided to create a confrontation between her and the officials. How best to deal with that? You can talk to her and take all sorts of stupid behavior and be the nice guy. Me? I would have banged her a second time after she made it plain she refused to sit down and let her assistant take over. The game would have stopped until she left and I would have made it clear to both benches and the table what we're waiting for.

And no one forfeits anything.