Missed Base - Homerun

[UmpBill]

This actually happened in a state high school softball tournament game, but I am interested in how it would be ruled in baseball, both OBR and Fed.

The batter hit a homerun out of the park but, in her exuberance, missed both second and third bases. She stopped just before she touched home and ran across the pitcher's area to touch second. She then proceeded to touch third and home. Are there any appeals available for the defense whereby she would be called out?

Change the scenario to say that she missed second but did not miss third. She again stopped just before she touched home and ran across the pitcher's area to touch second. She then proceeded to touch third and home. Does the answer change?

Again, please answer for both ORB and Fed. Thanks!!!

[UmpTTS43]

In OBR, and FED, when correcting base running errors, bases must be touched in the reverse order. There is a "last time by" concept that says if a base is missed while passing it, that error is corrected if that base is subsequently touched the last time by. In this instance, the "last time by" concept does not apply since there was no effort to touch third at all and is concidered a gross miss. On a dead ball situation, although there are slight differences between FED and OBR, once a runner advances to the next base, that runner cannot legally return to correct a baserunning infraction.

In both instances, a valid appeal would be upheld at second due to the runner not correcting the error before reaching the next base during a dead ball. A valid appeal would also be upheld at third for not correctly running the bases in reverse order. The gross miss nullifies the "last time by" principle.

[txump81]

I agree on the appeals.

Dead Ball situation is different than Live Ball I think. When the ball is dead, A runner can't return to touch a missed base once she has acquired the next base. A runner is considered to have acquired the base once they pass that base even if it is not touched, so once the runner passed 3B the first time, she acquired 3B and could not return to touch 2B. Same thing on the second scenario also.

That's how I would have reasoned and ruled. Enlighten me please.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by txump81

I agree on the appeals.

Dead Ball situation is different than Live Ball I think. When the ball is dead, A runner can't return to touch a missed base once she has acquired the next base. A runner is considered to have acquired the base once they pass that base even if it is not touched, so once the runner passed 3B the first time, she acquired 3B and could not return to touch 2B. Same thing on the second scenario also.

That's how I would have reasoned and ruled. Enlighten me please.

In FED you can't return if you are at/beyond the next base from your last legally touched base at the time the ball went dead.

In OBR you cannot return if you touch the next base beyond where you physically were after the ball went dead.

[DG]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

In FED you can't return if you are at/beyond the next base from your last legally touched base at the time the ball went dead.

In OBR you cannot return if you touch the next base beyond where you physically were after the ball went dead.

Ball was dead when it left the yard.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by DG

Ball was dead when it left the yard.

I know that.

BUT txump81 said and highlighjted

A runner can't return to touch a missed base once she has acquired the next base.

And that's not necessarily true - so I posted the rules.

[txump81]

So in OBR, the BR in the OP would have to touch 3B then 2B then 3B then HP and she would be OK?

In LL, according to 7.10b, the BR in the OP is just SOL. Once she passed 3B, she can't go back and touch 2B even though she hasn't touched 3B. This looks to be the same in FED rules also.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

In this instance, the "last time by" concept does not apply since there was no effort to touch third at all and is considered a gross miss.

Citation please.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by txump81

So in OBR, the BR in the OP would have to touch 3B then 2B then 3B then HP and she would be OK?

In LL, according to 7.10b, the BR in the OP is just SOL. Once she passed 3B, she can't go back and touch 2B even though she hasn't touched 3B. This looks to be the same in FED rules also.

Can't go back in either because the runner screwed up in both rule sets..

But there are differences in the rules.

Play - fly ball to deep RF. R1 goes past 2B. Fly ball is caught. F9 throws to 1B to double off R! but the ball goes out of play. At the time it went dead R1 was still past 2B.

In FED he cannot legally return to 1B because he was at/past the next base at the time the ball went dead.

In OBR he can legally return. He would only forfeit the right if he touched 3B after the ball went dead.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Citation please.

Someone will correct me if I am wrong but I believe "gross miss" is a J/R term.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Citation please.

Common sense and a sense of fair play. Plus it violates the spirit of the rule. You cannot cut across the field with no attempt to touch and then be legal on a subsequent touch.

I don't know if "gross miss" is a J/R term or not. When the last time by concept was put into effect, the term gross miss was used to describe situations such as this.

[txump81]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Can't go back in either because the runner screwed up in both rule sets..

But there are differences in the rules.

Play - fly ball to deep RF. R1 goes past 2B. Fly ball is caught. F9 throws to 1B to double off R! but the ball goes out of play. At the time it went dead R1 was still past 2B.

In FED he cannot legally return to 1B because he was at/past the next base at the time the ball went dead.

In OBR he can legally return. He would only forfeit the right if he touched 3B after the ball went dead.

Got it. I think I need to go get my Juris Doctorate to interpret all these.

I will hope it never happens and when it does I will rule to the best of my ability based off this info and then sell the h3!! out of it to the irate coach.

Honestly, I don't think a coach would know the difference. At least not the ones I have umpired for. They know the basics and only care about the advanced stuff IF it benefits them.

I'm not saying I have the attitude of I'm right and you're wrong. I always do the best I can at anything and in the heat of the moment sometimes you have a brain fart. It happens to everyone. That is why I am on here, trying to learn all the intricacies (sp?) of the rules.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

Common sense and a sense of fair play. Plus it violates the spirit of the rule. You cannot cut across the field with no attempt to touch and then be legal on a subsequent touch.

I don't know if "gross miss" is a J/R term or not. When the last time by concept was put into effect, the term gross miss was used to describe situations such as this.

These expressions in my experience accompany somebody making crap up. I don't recollect "gross miss" from J/R. I'll check when I get home, but if anyone knows where that is I'd like to see it.

And nothing about cutting across the diamond violates the "spirit" of "last time by": indeed, in the OP the runner touched the base on his last time by, so he not only observed the spirit but also the letter of the rule. Cutting across the diamond does violate the "spirit" of "every time by," but that's not a rule.

[greymule]

I know I've seen gross miss and would have bet it was from the J/R, but all I see is "complete bypass" and "more than a body length." The BRD also uses those terms. On a quick look, I don't see the play covered in the PBUC.

My 2006 BRD also cites Play 6-4 when apparently they meant Play 5-4, a mistake that creates serious confusion.

From the 2006 BRD "ruling": "'Last time by' applies to situations where the runner could have touched the base but missed it by less than his body's length."

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by mbyron

These expressions in my experience accompany somebody making crap up. I don't recollect "gross miss" from J/R. I'll check when I get home, but if anyone knows where that is I'd like to see it.

And nothing about cutting across the diamond violates the "spirit" of "last time by": indeed, in the OP the runner touched the base on his last time by, so he not only observed the spirit but also the letter of the rule. Cutting across the diamond does violate the "spirit" of "every time by," but that's not a rule.

Contrary to your belief, it is not terminology in order to make crap up. Since the rule book contains many errors, omissions, and discrepencies, those are the guidelines that are used when determining rule interpretations. You may not like it, but that is the way it is. If you don't believe me, plunk down some cash and attend some higher education concerning baseball.