HR, missed base

[Jay R]

A couple of questions regarding this scenerio: Basses loaded, two outs and batter hits a home run.

Q1 If the batter misses 2B, how many runs score?
Q2 If the batter misses 3B, how many runs score?
Q3 If the runner on first misses 3B, how many runs score?

We'll assume that the proper appeal is made and the missed bag represents the third out.

Thanks.

[greymule]

A1: 3
A2: 3
A3: 2

[Whowefoolin]

1
2
2

1. Because he never officially reached second, I would put it down as a single and score the runner from 3rd only.

2. Because the runner never officially reached third, put it as a double and score two (R2 adn R3).

[bluezebra]

1..3
2..3
3..3

Since none of the outs were due to a force play, all runners score.

Bob

[thumpferee]

Originally posted by Jay R
A couple of questions regarding this scenerio: Basses loaded, two outs and batter hits a home run.

Q1 If the batter misses 2B, how many runs score?
Q2 If the batter misses 3B, how many runs score?
Q3 If the runner on first misses 3B, how many runs score?

We'll assume that the proper appeal is made and the missed bag represents the third out.

Thanks.

Assuming all runners have crossed the plate already, 3 runs would count in each of your scenerios.

Since there is no force out on the plays, all runs would count except that of the runner who failed to touch.

I'm with Bluezebra,

1-3
2-3
3-3

FED Case Book 8.2.1 (a)(b)and (c) may help to reference.

[Edited by thumpferee on May 11th, 2003 at 04:41 AM]

[thumpferee]

RUT ROH, I found another reference for Lil' League Rules. Don't know if different than FED but, LL Rule Book says,

7.12
Unless two are out, the status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding runner's failure to touch or retouch a base. If, upon appeal, the preceding runner is the third out, no runners following the preceding runner shall score.

[jicecone]

7.12
"Unless two are out, the status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding runner's failure to touch or retouch a base. If, upon appeal, the preceding runner is the third out, no runners following the preceding runner shall score."

You left out the last sentence, " If such third out is a result of a force play, neither preceding nor following runners shall score".

I got to go with Tee's answer.

I hope were not all working the same game when this happens. We will be lost without our computers on the field and access to the forum!!!

[jicecone]

After re-reading, I will withdraw my answer until I research further. I doth believe I opened my trap too soon. What else is new?

[thumpferee]

Originally posted by jicecone
7.12
"Unless two are out, the status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding runner's failure to touch or retouch a base. If, upon appeal, the preceding runner is the third out, no runners following the preceding runner shall score."

You left out the last sentence, " If such third out is a result of a force play, neither preceding nor following runners shall score".

I got to go with Tee's answer.

I hope were not all working the same game when this happens. We will be lost without our computers on the field and access to the forum!!!

I left out the last sentence on purpose due to the fact that it doesn't apply to his question. We all know that NO Runs would score on a force out....DON'T WE?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Jay R
A couple of questions regarding this scenerio: Basses loaded, two outs and batter hits a home run.

Q1 If the batter misses 2B, how many runs score?
Q2 If the batter misses 3B, how many runs score?
Q3 If the runner on first misses 3B, how many runs score?

We'll assume that the proper appeal is made and the missed bag represents the third out.

Thanks.

1. 3 -- R1, R2 and R3 all crossed the plate before the third out.

2. 3 -- same reasoning

3. 2 -- R2 and R3 score, but BR's run doesn't count because he was "behind" the runner who made the third out.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by greymule
A1: 3
A2: 3
A3: 2

Agreed, but I'm amazed at some of the "misses" besides merely the missed base ;-)


Freix

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Agreed. Some of the misses are surprising! I just entered the discussion but perhaps some of you were thinking force plays for all advancements???

In FED Rule 9-1-1 says "A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows: c. by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases..."

Not that my answers should count, because I've read everyone's input

3
3
2

[jicecone]

Sometimes you can read this stuff way too much however, after digging in deeper and understanding "bob jenkins"
input I see how 3, 3, 2 runs was determined.

[greymule]

I don't think we should conclude that Freix's response reflects elitism. He expressed merely surprise, not disdain. I've learned a great deal on these threads and freely admit to having harbored significant misconceptions about certain rules. (I once thought that if two runners were on a base, the one who got there first was the "preceding" running.) But I too was surprised that the first four answers to the original post were all different. The plays are covered specifically and similarly in all rules codes and in no way are HTBT situations or involve judgment or interpretation.

As for the subjects Tim mentions, (1) running lane plays come in many variations that have involved all sorts of debate, (2) the answer to the caught third strike question isn't neatly covered in rule such-and-such or case book play number whatever (that I know of), and (3) all kinds of "what ifs" can arise, especially since the various codes award bases differently and place different restrictions on runners. There are also some plays that I or Tim or Freix or any of us would call differently based simply on our own standards of what constitutes verbal interference, USC, "quality throw," "continuing action," and so on. Debate and discussion on those situations is extremely helpful in making us better umpires. We also recognize that the rule books are often ambiguous, and that even the guidance from Major League umpires has sometimes been contradictory.

I'm not suggesting that the only legitimate questions for the board are those whose answers can't be found somewhere in the books. I've read the books a hundred times and still appreciate refresher questions, which I often miss.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Tim C


What makes these misses any different than someone missing a question concerning the runners lane and the position of the throw from the infielder, or missing the question of whether a pitch that bounces before home plate is fouled directly to the catcher (and caught) can or cannot be caught for a third strike out, or incorrectly answering about in what order to place base runners when the ball goes to DBT?

Tee, I felt this question resulted in a very simple, black and white answer as addressed by the rules. It would not include any judgment of timing or any special interpretation needed from a complimentary source (J/R, JEA, BRD, etc.) in order to know the correct answer.

And while I might understand someone relatively new not fully understanding the situation and ruling, I'd not expect that misunderstanding from anyone who's been around the boards for a period of time to have seen the many similar questions regarding the issue. I also would not have expected an incorrect answer from ANY veteran official who has been through repeated years of training and experience.

Many were surprised when Canseco had a flyball bounce off his head into the stands.
It was simply something not expected from someone at that level.


Just my opinion,

Freix