New MLB DH Question

[JJ]

Summer adult league, MLB rules with DH allowed. Overall rule knowledge by umpires, coaches, players is suspect. Here's what happened -

Team A presents a 9-man lineup at home plate. The PU and head coach of Team B do not notice that Team A has listed their pitcher as "P/DH". He pitches until the 6th inning, and is then taken out as pitcher. You guessed it - he comes up to bat in the 7th as the "DH".
NOW something starts to click with everyone.
The Team B coach says "He's an illegal player, so it's an automatic forfeit." He DOES protest the game at that point.
The Team A coach says, "No, you can list a pitcher as "P/DH" and keep him as DH if he's taken out as pitcher."
Umpires huddle up and say, "Well, it COULD be just a batting out of order thing."
Like I said, overall rule knowledge is suspect.
So how would you sort it out?

JJ

[UmpJM]

JJ,

Illegal substitution. Don't allow it.

Bring up the pitcher who came in for the starter (or his sub, if that's what his manager wants).

JM

[mbyron]

A pitcher once removed from the game cannot be the DH. The DH cannot be added to the lineup in the 6th inning, but must be in the original lineup and bat for the pitcher's spot (6.10). So Team A is wrong about all that.

If the pitcher has just come up to bat and taken his place in the batter's box, it's an illegal substitution (3.06). Unless the league has a special rule permitting a forfeit (which I doubt), an illegal sub should be ejected. The proper batter would be whoever replaced the pitcher in the lineup.

If the pitcher has not yet taken his place in the batter's box, I would prevent the illegal substitution and get the proper sub up to the plate.

[MD Longhorn]

Are NCAA rules for this different? Seems I remember the University of Texas doing exactly this with Brooks Kieschnick a few years ago.

[UmpJM]

mbcrowder,

Yes they are, and it would be perfectly legal under NCAA rules to have a player initially designated both F1 and DH, be replaced as F1, and continue as DH.

JM

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

mbcrowder,

Yes they are, and it would be perfectly legal under NCAA rules to have a player initially designated both F1 and DH, be replaced as F1, and continue as DH.

JM

Which is probably why the team thought it was legal.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbyron

If the pitcher has just come up to bat and taken his place in the batter's box, it's an illegal substitution (3.06). Unless the league has a special rule permitting a forfeit (which I doubt), an illegal sub should be ejected. The proper batter would be whoever replaced the pitcher in the lineup.

Agreed, I think. The "illegal sub" is still a sub. So, the current pitcher (S1) is now out of the game. Someone not currently in the line-up needs to bat and there needs to be a new pitcher next inning (the batter and the pitcher can be the same player).

If the pitcher has not yet taken his place in the batter's box, I would prevent the illegal substitution and get the proper sub up to the plate.

Definitely agreed on this part.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by JJ

Summer adult league, MLB rules with DH allowed. Overall rule knowledge by umpires, coaches, players is suspect. Here's what happened -

Team A presents a 9-man lineup at home plate. The PU and head coach of Team B do not notice that Team A has listed their pitcher as "P/DH". He pitches until the 6th inning, and is then taken out as pitcher. You guessed it - he comes up to bat in the 7th as the "DH".
NOW something starts to click with everyone.
The Team B coach says "He's an illegal player, so it's an automatic forfeit." He DOES protest the game at that point.
The Team A coach says, "No, you can list a pitcher as "P/DH" and keep him as DH if he's taken out as pitcher."
Umpires huddle up and say, "Well, it COULD be just a batting out of order thing."
Like I said, overall rule knowledge is suspect.
So how would you sort it out?

JJ

the question has been addressed however I have a question to the OP.

If there are only 9 players listed in the lineup and you are not playing by NCAA rules, if you see "DH" next to a name, why are you not questioning this?

I know the OP was not the umpire in this game but this can happen. It is obvious that the manager had NCAA experience and the umpires did not. The problem I have is how can you list 9 players and designate one as a DH in a non-NCAA game? Why didn't the umpire question this?

This is why we are supposed to have lineup cards and we should know how to read them!

[JJ]

Remember in the OP I said "Overall rule knowledge is suspect"?

JJ

[johnnyg08]

In NCAA does the F1/DH have to be declared on the lineup card if they're going a straight 9 or is it assumed meaning they could simply put F1 on the card as F1 and still use him as DH if they make a change?

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

In NCAA does the F1/DH have to be declared on the lineup card if they're going a straight 9 or is it assumed meaning they could simply put F1 on the card as F1 and still use him as DH if they make a change?

If the pitcher is listed in the starting batting order, he automatically becomes the DH.