Asking for Help

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by mbyron

In sum:
"Get your own calls": a good motto for each individual umpire.

"Get it right": a good motto for the crew as a whole.

Well said!

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Why, why, why would any official ask "for help"?

Over 40 years of umping I had "all lmy own calls" . . .

Do we need a "group hug"?

Get your own calls . . . !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TC

Why, why, why?

Umpiring has changed a little in 40 years, and it's more important to get a call right than to further the illusion that the individual umpire is imperious and infallible.

The players on the field work the hardest of anyone involved in putting on a baseball game. They deserve to have the calls be correct, irrespective of the level of personal pride in each umpire. If it takes consulting with a second party who sometimes has a better view, or a view of something that makes the result of the play different, then it should be done.

It should also be a rare occurrence.

[Kevin Finnerty]

And you need to have a higher devotion to getting the calls right. All the calls. Sometimes that requires help.

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

... It should also be a rare occurrence.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Why, why, why would any official ask "for help"?

Over 40 years of umping I had "all lmy own calls" . . .

Do we need a "group hug"?

Get your own calls . . . !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TC

Thank you Tim, was waiting to read that.

Its' BU's call at first, make it.

There are a few situations (a tag attempt) where BU might need to ask did he tag (Coach outlined in A how to do that properly), but that should be very rare.

And I would add, that would be when BU might be in the B or C position and F3 makes the tag blocking the view.

Thanks
David

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by David B

Thank you Tim, was waiting to read that.

Its' BU's call at first, make it.

There are a few situations (a tag attempt) where BU might need to ask did he tag (Coach outlined in A how to do that properly), but that should be very rare.

And I would add, that would be when BU might be in the B or C position and F3 makes the tag blocking the view.

Thanks
David

I had this exact call last year as BU. Swinging bunt down 1B line, I was in C, I had F1, B/R, F3 all in one area, I could not see the tag...it sure looked like there was one...but didn't want to guess...so I asked PU. His view was unobstructed.

[Lawrence.Dorsey]

I am not a big fan of going for help but occasionally I will if I think I missed something. It happens once or twice a season at most. I had two interesting "help" situations in a game two weeks ago. My partner's mechanics were a little weak and I think it contributed greatly to the help or lack there of. First play involved a pickoff of R2 after a foul ball. I had no idea if my partner had put the ball back in play because he was not very demonstrative. After the tag and second, which got the runner easily, I made no call. I turned to my partner and asked "Did you have the ball in play" and he said "yes". I turned around and emphatically called R2 out.

The second was just poor play and some weak mechanics. High pop fly between 3B and HP that was tracking the line. F1 and F5 are jockeying for the ball and both miss it. My partner can see the ball land in fair territory and then bounce foul but he can't see if either fielder makes contact with the ball over fair territory. I was in C and 90 degrees to the play and could clearly see neither fielder touch it. He could have easily pointed at me and said "Do you have a touch (or contact)" and I would have said "No". The foul call could have been emphatic at that point. Instead, we had a bunch of coaches and players scratching their heads for 30 seconds or so trying to figure out what happened. My partner finally made a weak foul call which he later admitted was way to weak and the timing was poor..

Oh well....

[David B]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I had this exact call last year as BU. Swinging bunt down 1B line, I was in C, I had F1, B/R, F3 all in one area, I could not see the tag...it sure looked like there was one...but didn't want to guess...so I asked PU. His view was unobstructed.

Yes, it worked that time, but I had game last week, same type of play, but I'm PU and have R3 coming home.

BU makes what looks like right call with me having to stay at the plate, but coach asks and here comes BU asking me for help.

I told him between later, you have to know the situation and make your own call, i have other responsibilities.

Thanks
David

[kylejt]

The classic three are, dropped ball, missed tag and pulled foot. If you're working two man, there are situations where you have the worst view on the field, but you still own the call. If you've ever worked the small field, and got backed up by a ground ball to short, and had to make that call at first, you know what I'm talking about. F3's foot could be 6" off the bag, and you have no way of telling. None.

Really, really sharp umpires, with similar partners, will get help BEFORE the call it. "Mike! Was he on the bag!?" That's rare, and I'm lucky enough to work with a few guys like this. But if I'm hung out in deep C, and a manager asks me to get help on the pulled foot, a missed swipe tag, of course I'll ask PU for info. That's just common sense.

The danger in asking for help on calls is that managers will expect you to ask for help on rountine bangers. That's not going to happen.

I had a manager last night, away from the field, ask me why one of my umpires wouldn't get help on call like I described above. So I asked him what he asked the umpire. He just said to him "Can you get help on that?", and my 12 year old BU said no, it was his call to make. I told the manager that next time he should say "I think the first baseman pulled his foot, can you ask the PU for help?". The key is what the manager requests of you. They've got to be specific in their request. That's what I've taught my kids.

[Tim C]

"We owe it to kids and coaches who have a little more skin in the game than we do . . . "

I "owe" only that there be a level playing field for the game.

As it has been said many times before: "If players and coaches didn't lie and cheat you wouldn't need officials."

Few high school ages players have invested "more skin" than the guys I umpire with . . .

T

[billken]

Originally Posted by Tim C

I "owe" only that there be a level playing field for the game.

As it has been said many times before: "If players and coaches didn't lie and cheat you wouldn't need officials."

Few high school ages players have invested "more skin" than the guys I umpire with . . .

T

I agree with your first statement...we are saying the same thing.

I think that kids who work out daily, spend countless hours in the cage, travel to summer games, and are dedicated to being their best do have more skin than I do. I dedicate a fair amount of my time and energy, but not 4-5 hours a day to officiating. Obviously, a coach who's job depends on wins and losses has a fair amount at stake as well.

I'm not going to have a policy that assumes that I'm infallible. I'm going to be confident, do my best, and apply my knowledge of the game and the rules to my calls. But to say that my partner can't ever help me is, in my opinion, elevating me to some sort of God-like being. I can own my calls, but I can ask for help in certain circumstances and still be a very strong official.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by billken

I agree with your first statement...we are saying the same thing.

I think that kids who work out daily, spend countless hours in the cage, travel to summer games, and are dedicated to being their best do have more skin than I do. I dedicate a fair amount of my time and energy, but not 4-5 hours a day to officiating. Obviously, a coach who's job depends on wins and losses has a fair amount at stake as well.

I'm not going to have a policy that assumes that I'm infallible. I'm going to be confident, do my best, and apply my knowledge of the game and the rules to my calls. But to say that my partner can't ever help me is, in my opinion, elevating me to some sort of God-like being. I can own my calls, but I can ask for help in certain circumstances and still be a very strong official.

This philosophy would be great if officials took it to heart and asked questions of partners when the question was truly required.

I've had this happen twice in 20 years. Once I had F4 run in front of me for the "money shot" at first base and the other time F1 short-hopped F3 on a comebacker and I couldn't tell if the fielder had control of the ball (I was lazy and that one was avoidable and a lesson for me). So once in 20 years I really felt I *needed* help. I see some people exceed that in a single *game*.

Unfortunately, the attitudes I see from umpires in a lot of games is that the coach comes out and asks the umpire to "get help" and the umpire simply doesn't have the stones to refuse or thinks it's rude to do so. What those umpires don't realize is that (1) the coach doesn't care about "getting it right", they care about getting it their way and (2) it's our job to put ourselves in the best position to make the call, make it, and have the intestinal fortitude to stick with it.

I worked with a guy a few years ago who, on a grounder while he was in the C position, didn't move to make the call at first. Three times he came to me for help on plays at first base because of his poor base work. I am convinced that on just about every play at first base, the base umpire can put himself in a great position to see what needs to be seen. Angles first, then distance. Don't be afraid to run. Adjust to a poor throw with a step or two and a lean.

The problem is that too many umpires (1) don't know how to work the bases and (2) act as though they can always go to the plate umpire for help on that "tricky" pulled foot, swipe tag, or other such squirrels.

And of course, once the base umpire goes for help, it's open season on such requests and the coaches will *never* stay in the dugout. They'll be out on everything close, trying to shop the call to the most advantageous bidder.

[ozzy6900]

Gotta tell 'ya, the only time I asked for help from my partner was when I was having a heart attack on the field.

1. You get in position to see the play.
2. You see the entire play from start to finish.
3. You find the ball so you see if thee was control or not.
4. You make the call.

It's called 1 play - 1 call. If you are doing your job correctly (it takes time to learn), when a coach approaches you to ask for help, you just tell him, "John, if I needed help to make the call, I would have asked for it before I made the call. Let's play ball, John." and hustle into position.

I agree that umpires need to have the gonads to basically say "no" to the coach but the umpire needs to be in position and properly trained. Going out there and expecting your partner to be "your backup" is not how you approach officiating. In the rare instance where you need to meet and discuss a ruling or call, that is acceptable (as noted previously from NCAA & MLBUM).

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Gotta tell 'ya, the only time I asked for help from my partner was when I was having a heart attack on the field.

Pussy.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Few high school ages players have invested "more skin" than the guys I umpire with . . .

T

If you honestly think that, then you need to be a lot more open. There is virtually no umpire who works harder each week and works more hours each week on and off the field than the average player.

You can umpire more years than you can play, but the hardest worker on any baseball field is the player. No one else comes close.

P.S. Billken, you said it best, but only after I posted my similar response did I see yours.

[kylejt]

I'm guessing those that won't ever get help have never worked two man on the 60' diamond. Seeing a pulled foot at first from deep C ain't easy, and may be the toughest call in organized baseball. And if you work with a good parnter, he's looking right down the barrel of it.

Man, I have no trouble asking for help when I'm out there. None. Just be decent about it.

That said, if I'm on top if it, I've got no trouble shooing a guy back to the dugout.