Asking for Help

[Spence]

Basketball official curious as to how baseball umps deal with the "ask for help" issue.

Bang bang play at 1B with the throw to the outfield side of the base. 2 man crew. Base ump calls runner out. Base coach says "his foot was off the base - can you ask for help." Ump asks for help and the home plate umpire calls the runner safe.

Is this standard procedure/acceptable?

[johnnyg08]

I won't listen to the base coach. Typically I will own my call at 1B if I'm BU...not to proud to say I'll never ask...but probably not in this situation.

[UmpJM]

Spence,

No, that is not quite the standard procedure/acceptable.

The "unacceptable" part is that the original calling umpire ALWAYS makes/announces the "final call".

There are basically two schools of thought on the question you pose.

A. If the BU did not see what he needed to to make the call, he should not make a call. He should immediately go to his partner (assuming he wasn't otherwise occupied) and say, "John! Did he have the bag?", to which the reply would be "Pat, YES. He KEPT the bag!" after which Pat crisply punches out the runner and we go to our respective positions.

B. Just use ALL the evidence available and make your best call like you've never been more sure of anything in your life. Then, IF a coach comes out to talk to you, and he's being reasonable, and your partner wasn't otherwise occupied, and he asks if you could check with your partner, and you feel like it, you say, "Sure, Matt. Give me a minute and I''l go check with him." Then you go find out what your partner had, decide if you want to change your call, and then go tell everybody. It is considered "courteous" to notify the offended coach ahead of "announcing" your decision if you do decide to change your call.

JM

[Spence]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Spence,

No, that is not quite the standard procedure/acceptable.

The "unacceptable" part is that the original calling umpire ALWAYS makes/announces the "final call".

There are basically two schools of thought on the question you pose.

A. If the BU did not see what he needed to to make the call, he should not make a call. He should immediately go to his partner (assuming he wasn't otherwise occupied) and say, "John! Did he have the bag?", to which the reply would be "Pat, YES. He KEPT the bag!" after which Pat crisply punches out the runner and we go to our respective positions.

B. Just use ALL the evidence available and make your best call like you've never been more sure of anything in your life. Then, IF a coach comes out to talk to you, and he's being reasonable, and your partner wasn't otherwise occupied, and he asks if you could check with your partner, and you feel like it, you say, "Sure, Matt. Give me a minute and I''l go check with him." Then you go find out what your partner had, decide if you want to change your call, and then go tell everybody. It is considered "courteous" to notify the offended coach ahead of "announcing" your decision if you do decide to change your call.

JM

Thanks, JM.

Doesn't "B" set you up to be questioned on any close play? I agree with asking for help in A but I think B sets you up for a lot of conversations. If I'm the ump and I "saw what I saw" and wasn't obstructed why would I open a can of worms?

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by Spence

Thanks, JM.

Doesn't "B" set you up to be questioned on any close play? I agree with asking for help in A but I think B sets you up for a lot of conversations. If I'm the ump and I "saw what I saw" and wasn't obstructed why would I open a can of worms?

Spence,

Good question.

That's why I put all the "ands" in. Most of the time a coach asks me if I would get help, I just tell him, "No, Bob, I saw everything I needed to."

But every now and then you get straightlined or your vision gets obstructed and you make a call. You can tell by the reaction of the team that benefited that you DID "kick it". Your partner is trying to make eye contact and keeps taking his hat off. The coach asks for time, and politely and without insulting you asks if you would mind checking with your partner.

Sometimes it's the right thing to do.

Oh, and on a check swing appeal request, I ALWAYS go to my partner.

JM

[Spence]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Spence,

Good question.

That's why I put all the "ands" in. Most of the time a coach asks me if I would get help, I just tell him, "No, Bob, I saw everything I needed to."

But every now and then you get straightlined or your vision gets obstructed and you make a call. You can tell by the reaction of the team that benefited that you DID "kick it". Your partner is trying to make eye contact and keeps taking his hat off. The coach asks for time, and politely and without insulting you asks if you would mind checking with your partner.

Sometimes it's the right thing to do.

Oh, and on a check swing appeal request, I ALWAYS go to my partner.

JM

Thanks. Good info.

One more scenario: Tag play. You ring up the runner. Other coach yells "he dropped the ball." You didn't see him drop it. Do you ask your partner?

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by Spence

Thanks. Good info.

One more scenario: Tag play. You ring up the runner. Other coach yells "he dropped the ball." You didn't see him drop it. Do you ask your partner?

Coach "yells" = I don't hear so well.

Coach talks politley = I'll be happy to oblige your request (generally speaking)

You said that the coach yells "he dropped the ball" - probably not getting much response

Other than that, JM's response still holds true.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by Spence

Thanks. Good info.

One more scenario: Tag play. You ring up the runner. Other coach yells "he dropped the ball." You didn't see him drop it. Do you ask your partner?

Spence,

The sitch you describe is one of "the NCAA seven" AND "the MLBUM six" - situations where the non-calling umpire may offer his unsolicited input if he is 110% certain that the ball was not securely possessed through the tag AND his partner did not see it come loose. It is still the calling umpire's responsibility to decide whether or not he wants to change his call.

If a coach asks me to check with my partner in this sitch, I just say, "I already did."

JM

[APG]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Spence,

The sitch you describe is one of "the NCAA seven" AND "the MLBUM six" - situations where the non-calling umpire may offer his unsolicited input if he is 110% certain that the ball was not securely possessed through the tag AND his partner did not see it come loose. It is still the calling umpire's responsibility to decide whether or not he wants to change his call.

Basketball official here as well. Would you mind spelling out what are the 7 situations for NCAA and 6 for MLB?

[UmpJM]

Geez,

Don't you basketball guys know how to look stuff up?

The NCAA 7:

C) In the situations listed below, a partner who is 100 percent certain he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information.

However, the ultimate decision to change a call rests with the calling umpire.

1) Deciding if a home run is fair or foul.
2) Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or ground-rule double.
3) Cases in which a foul tip is dropped or trapped by the catcher.
4) Cases in which a foul fly ball is caught or not caught.
5) Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because he did not see a ball dropped or juggled after making a tag or force.
6) Spectator interference plays.
7) Balks called by an umpire who clearly did not realize the pitcher's foot was off the rubber.

The MLBUM 6:

(3) In a limited number of situations, a partner may have critical information that is unknown to the umpire making the call. When the partner is certain that the umpire making the call could benefit from such additional information, the partner should alert the other umpire that there is additional, important information that should be shared. While the mechanics of bringing this information to the attention of the umpire who made the call is left to the crews (walking towards the partner, inconspicuous signal, etc.), crucial, potential call-changing information should not be withheld on a play that has clearly been missed. As noted in the Official Baseball Rules, "Each umpire team should work out a simple set of signals, so the proper umpire can always right a manifestly wrong decision when convinced he has made an error."

Nevertheless, the ultimate decision to change a call rests with the umpire who made the call.

Plays such as the following lend themselves to the philosophy described above:

- Deciding whether a fly ball that left the playing field was fair or foul.
- Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or a ground-rule double.
- Cases where a foul tip is dropped by the catcher, causing it to become a foul ball.
- Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because a ball is dropped or juggled after making a tag or force.
- Spectator interference plays.
- Balks called by an umpire who clearly did not realize the pitcher's foot was off the rubber.

JM

[Chris_Hickman]

You are going to "own" that call. It is one thing if you are in the B or C... but you are standing right there. You cannot ask your partner to bail you out on that one.

[Tim C]

Why, why, why would any official ask "for help"?

Over 40 years of umping I had "all lmy own calls" . . .

Do we need a "group hug"?

Get your own calls . . . !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TC

[billken]

I think becase we have evolved to realize that we are not perfect. We owe it to kids and coaches who have a little more skin in the game than we do, to get it right and not make the game about us. It isn't a sign of weakness to ask for help in the right situations. I am not bigger than the game.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Why, why, why would any official ask "for help"?

Over 40 years of umping I had "all lmy own calls" . . .

Do we need a "group hug"?

Get your own calls . . . !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TC

"Get your own calls": an excellent goal, and one I strive for every game.

I have yet to call a runner out when the ball is rolling away on the ground: I make my share of mistakes, but you have to see the ball before banging the out.

I had a partner on Saturday, however, who was calling outs before the tags. He set himself up for some out/safes, and if he hadn't switched to safe with the ball rolling away, I would have helped.

In sum:
"Get your own calls": a good motto for each individual umpire.

"Get it right": a good motto for the crew as a whole.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by mbyron

In sum:
"Get your own calls": a good motto for each individual umpire.

"Get it right": a good motto for the crew as a whole.

Well said!