Asking for Help

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Kevin:

I am glad that you are continuing to umpire. I have never drank the koolaid under "get the call correct at all costs" system. And now I don't have too.

I was much happier when umpires were required to umpire.

Group hugs aren't my style.

T

I had a base partner call a runner out on a back pick at third. The throw beat the runner by six feet and F5 slapped the tag down on his back and my partner enthusiastically banged him out. He then turned away and walked a few feet and took his position. Except, the ball was lying on the ground. While shocked onlookers were voicing their disputes, my partner looked at me with that was-the-ball-really-on-the-ground look, and I nodded gently and pointed to the ground. My partner said, "Runner, stay at third, the ball was on the ground and the runner is safe!"

He had no ego and the eventual call was right. The game went smoothly, because the game's fairness took a front seat to the umpires' egos.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900
Gotta tell 'ya, the only time I asked for help from my partner was when I was having a heart attack on the field.

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Pussy.

Yeah, I was weak that time, but the first time, I was able to call 911 myself! He, he, he!

[dash_riprock]

Way to stay out there Oz.

[Eastshire]

I almost never ask for help, not because I'm philosophically opposed to it, but because I'm never sure if the PU is even looking at my play. I have my responsibilities and he has his, why do I assume he's looking at my responsibility.

If I kick it, I just need to work harder.

[Kevin Finnerty]

And you need to have a higher devotion to getting the calls right. All the calls. Sometimes that requires help.

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

... It should also be a rare occurrence.

[bigda65]

Ive had two, one on a DP ball. First game of the season, diving stop by F4, and a throw to 2B, F6 calmly shuffles over to 2B slides across the base with his pivot foot, plants it about 2' off , catches the ball, then fires to 1B.
In processing what I had just saw, I emphatically gave the safe sign with an off the base move, I never once followed the throw to first, actually I never even thought about it, I was reprocessing what I had just seen on my first call of the year. So in that case I had to ask.

The other was a bunt. Left handed batter bunts up the 1B line, ball took a high hop off of the plate, hits the ground and bounces again probably 6' up the line, runner runs into the ball. Where I made a mistake was, that I assumed it hit him in fair territory, because at the instant he contacted the ball (with his chest) i simply lined up the direction of the ball in relation with the line. I called time and called the runner out. O-manager calls time comes out and asks if I will go for help, he thinks it was foul when the runner contacted the ball. no problem, go to 1B ump "charles where was the ball when the runner contacted it" foul he says, "are you 100% sure" no 110% he says.

So the moral of the story is "dont put yourself in a situation to have to go for help"
I put myself in both situations and had to go for help!

[kylejt]

The classic three are, dropped ball, missed tag and pulled foot. If you're working two man, there are situations where you have the worst view on the field, but you still own the call. If you've ever worked the small field, and got backed up by a ground ball to short, and had to make that call at first, you know what I'm talking about. F3's foot could be 6" off the bag, and you have no way of telling. None.

Really, really sharp umpires, with similar partners, will get help BEFORE the call it. "Mike! Was he on the bag!?" That's rare, and I'm lucky enough to work with a few guys like this. But if I'm hung out in deep C, and a manager asks me to get help on the pulled foot, a missed swipe tag, of course I'll ask PU for info. That's just common sense.

The danger in asking for help on calls is that managers will expect you to ask for help on rountine bangers. That's not going to happen.

I had a manager last night, away from the field, ask me why one of my umpires wouldn't get help on call like I described above. So I asked him what he asked the umpire. He just said to him "Can you get help on that?", and my 12 year old BU said no, it was his call to make. I told the manager that next time he should say "I think the first baseman pulled his foot, can you ask the PU for help?". The key is what the manager requests of you. They've got to be specific in their request. That's what I've taught my kids.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Great post, Kyle.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by kylejt

The classic three are, dropped ball, missed tag and pulled foot. If you're working two man, there are situations where you have the worst view on the field, but you still own the call. If you've ever worked the small field, and got backed up by a ground ball to short, and had to make that call at first, you know what I'm talking about. F3's foot could be 6" off the bag, and you have no way of telling. None.

Really, really sharp umpires, with similar partners, will get help BEFORE the call it. "Mike! Was he on the bag!?" That's rare, and I'm lucky enough to work with a few guys like this. But if I'm hung out in deep C, and a manager asks me to get help on the pulled foot, a missed swipe tag, of course I'll ask PU for info. That's just common sense.

Why?

I work a bit in the tournaments on a small diamond and I treat it no differently than the big diamonds. I get an angle to see the foot / tag best I can and I make the call. It's my call. If I don't go into it thinking that the plate guy can bail me out, I'm more likely going to work harder to get the right look.

The coaches asking to "get help" on every close play isn't a real effort to "get more calls right." It's an effort to get more calls go their way. Most times, the coach himself has a worse view than the base umpire in the small diamond C position. He's in the 3rd base box. At least 95% of the pulled foot requests I hear involve plays where the fielder stretches, holds the bag, and comes off right after the catch. The umpire looks at the foot, the coach does not and only sees the foot away from the bag a second or two later. Why should I appease him when I *saw* the foot on the bag. And yet I'm "arrogant" if I don't "get help."

If I truly think I need help, I will get it without hesitation. I officiate basketball and I probably go to a partner on an out-of-bounds call on my line at least once a game (and that's with 3 officials). I just don't think that a coach asking is enough for me to go and ask. I truly need to think I may not have seen something, and frankly that doesn't happen very often.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by kylejt

The classic three are, dropped ball, missed tag and pulled foot. If you're working two man, there are situations where you have the worst view on the field, but you still own the call. If you've ever worked the small field, and got backed up by a ground ball to short

How do you get "backed up"? I move towards third on this play, opening up a better angle on the play at first. I see too many guys move towards second (straight-lining them) or trying to get to the infield grass (and then giving up because the fielder and/or runner is in the way).

Angles can be gotten. Sometimes putting yourself farther away gives you a better angle.

[MrUmpire]

1. Getting help before making a call in not a mechanic I've seen taught anywhere. There has to be a call made before an "appeal" for help.

2. A study was posted on this site a few years back that indicated that video replays showed when ML umpires got help on a call, the revised call was wrong as often as right, thus overturning a correct call.

3. On most plays there should not be two sets of eyes on the same play.

4. Going to your partner assumes he had a better view despite his distance and other reponsibilities.

5. Study mechanics and angles and increase your mobility and you won't need to get help at first.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

1. Getting help before making a call in not a mechanic I've seen taught anywhere. There has to be a call made before an "appeal" for help.

2. A study was posted on this site a few years back that indicated that video replays showed when ML umpires got help on a call, the revised call was wrong as often as right, thus overturning a correct call.

3. On most plays there should not be two sets of eyes on the same play.

4. Going to your partner assumes he had a better view despite his distance and other reponsibilities.

5. Study mechanics and angles and increase your mobility and you won't need to get help at first.

Unless, in some rare instances, you want to get the call correct, rather than further this illusion that you are imperious and irreproachable.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

2. A study was posted on this site a few years back that indicated that video replays showed when ML umpires got help on a call, the revised call was wrong as often as right, thus overturning a correct call.

This could possibly qualify as the weakest, most absurd thing you have ever posted. Are you joking? It's hard to tell, because you didn't use one of those little winky faces.

A study ... on a web site ... wrong as often as right?

That is funny stuff. Especially considering that you're serious.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

1. Getting help before making a call in not a mechanic I've seen taught anywhere. There has to be a call made before an "appeal" for help.

2. A study was posted on this site a few years back that indicated that video replays showed when ML umpires got help on a call, the revised call was wrong as often as right, thus overturning a correct call.

3. On most plays there should not be two sets of eyes on the same play.

4. Going to your partner assumes he had a better view despite his distance and other reponsibilities.

5. Study mechanics and angles and increase your mobility and you won't need to get help at first.

Re 5.: Trust me, I'm pretty up on how things go on the 60' field.

Two man mechanics, on a LL field, require the BU to be behind the shortstop in a lot of situations. Bullets hit to F6 sometimes get the BU caught behind him, with no time to get an angle. A good PU will look down the line for a pulled foot when the BU is in C, on the little field. And yeah. the PU has a much better view of a heal being off the bag, than a guy in the grass behind the shortstop.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

This could possibly qualify as the weakest, most absurd thing you have ever posted. Are you joking? It's hard to tell, because you didn't use one of those little winky faces.

A study ... on a web site ... wrong as often as right?

That is funny stuff. Especially considering that you're serious.

Hey, don't argue with Mr. Umpire. After all, he's, well, Mr. Umpire.