To uphold or deny?

[lawump]

Bunch of umpire guys kick off the season each year by have a big dinner together at a local restaurant after our FED test. Last night was that night. During the evening one umpire shared a play he had last year, and asked if he "got it right."

The play resulted in a spirited debate. I am going to post the play, and NOT tell you my opinion. I am interested in your opinions.

FED RULES: R3. Batter hits the ball out in front of the plate. R3 comes far down the line. F2 fields the ball, and sees he has a play on R3. R3 sprints back toward third base. R3 goes back into third base standing up. He actually is going back so quickly, that he cannot stop at the bag, but rather steps on third base and continues several steps past the bag, and is standing on the outfield side of the bag. R3 is clearly going to be out, except F2 throws the ball all the way to the left field corner. R3 turns around and sprints for home (remember, he is standing two good steps on the outfield side of third base). He runs completely in foul territory and never touches third base on his way home. Defense appeals that the runner missed third base.

Do you uphold or deny the appeal? FED? OBR?

[UmpJM]

lawump,

Under FED, I would sustain the appeal.

Under OBR, I would deny it.

JM

[Ump29]

I only work under OBR so will answer based on that. Deny appeal.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

lawump,

Under FED, I would sustain the appeal.

Under OBR, I would deny it.

JM

Why would it be different? I would have an out in all 3 codes.

[jicecone]

I also have two outs. Fed and OBR

[greymule]

I had the same theoretical situation in an OBR game a few years ago. A runner who had taken a big turn around 1B had to scramble back when a quick throw was made to the bag. He made it to 1B but couldn't stop on the bag and fell about 6 feet into foul territory. The ball got away to the fence, and in advancing to 2B the runner stepped right over 1B. The defense appealed, and I upheld the appeal. A "discussion" naturally ensued, and I held that the runner had retreated "behind" 1B and was required to touch it on the way to 2B. The offense grumbled but accepted that explanation, but I admit I wasn't sure and still am not sure. It just seemed like the right call to me.

The OP reminds me of the play in which the retreating R3 overruns 3B toward left field, and then, as he stands 10 feet past 3B down the LF line, R2 closely approaches 3B but stops 6 inches from the bag. Has R2 "passed" R3? I would say no, yet I would say that R3 still has to touch 3B on his way home.

I think the OP can be argued either way, unless there's a case play or one of the authorities has given an opinion.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Why would it be different? I would have an out in all 3 codes.

bossman,

My "logic" is as follows...

Under FED I KNOW that the correct interpretation (at least this year) is that the appeal is upheld because I read the 2010 FED Interp, Situation #9 - which is essentially the same play.

Under OBR, my THINKING is that since the runner never retreated in the direction of 2B he has met his 7.02 obligation to "...touch the bases in order..." without retouching 3B and is therefore not liable to an appeal.

I can't find any interp that clarifies the question - just what I believe the rule means.

JM

[umpjim]

How does this differ from a popup or overslide at 2B with a wild throw to the outfield. Does the runner have to retouch 2B and if not can he be appealed in FED?

[ozzy6900]

I sustain the appeal in both codes. UmpJM noted that the FED 2010 Situation #9 is essentially the same thing:

SITUATION 9: R1, on third base, attempts to score on a squeeze play. B4 attempts to bunt, but misses the pitch and F2 comes up with the ball and gets R1 in a rundown between third and home. F2 eventually attempts to throw R1 out at third, but makes a bad throw into left field. R1 steps on third, but his momentum takes him several steps down the foul line behind third base. R1, seeing the bad throw, turns, misses third base as he advances to home. After R1 has touched home plate and enters the dugout, the defense calls “Time” and verbally appeals R1 missing third.
RULING: R1 is out on the valid defensive appeal. R1 must touch third base again on his way to home
plate. (8-2-1, 8-2-6c)

In OBR, R3 must touch 3rd base again on his way to home. Whenb he over ran 3rd, he is considered between 3rd and 2nd so in order to go home, he must touch 3rd. I think that many people are trying to apply "Last Time By" but it does not apply in this case.

[scarolinablue]

Originally Posted by lawump

Do you uphold or deny the appeal? FED? OBR?

C'mon, lawump, you know in SC we don't DO appeals in FED!!!

[SAump]

Originally Posted by lawump

Bunch of umpire guys kick off the season each year by have a big dinner together at a local restaurant after our FED test. Last night was that night. During the evening one umpire shared a play he had last year, and asked if he "got it right."

The play resulted in a spirited debate. I am going to post the play, and NOT tell you my opinion. I am interested in your opinions.

FED RULES: R3. Batter hits the ball out in front of the plate. R3 comes far down the line. F2 fields the ball, and sees he has a play on R3. R3 sprints back toward third base. R3 goes back into third base standing up. He actually is going back so quickly, that he cannot stop at the bag, but rather steps on third base and continues several steps past the bag, and is standing on the outfield side of the bag. R3 is clearly going to be out, except F2 throws the ball all the way to the left field corner. R3 turns around and sprints for home (remember, he is standing two good steps on the outfield side of third base). He runs completely in foul territory and never touches third base on his way home. Defense appeals that the runner missed third base.

Do you uphold or deny the appeal? FED? OBR?

It wouldn't be any different if he skirts fair territory just inside the 3rd baseline.

Appeal denied, R3 is standing on 3B at TOP. How can he miss the base?

[johnnyg08]

Great thread...so what do we tell the def-coach in our OBR games when he wants the appeal? Please offer an explanation...I've read all of the posts at least twice...I'm just wondering on what grounds we can deny the appeal in OBR...the coach will want an explanation and "I saw it on officiating.com" is probably not the best one I could give him. Thank you.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Great thread...so what do we tell the def-coach in our OBR games when he wants the appeal? Please offer an explanation...I've read all of the posts at least twice...I'm just wondering on what grounds we can deny the appeal in OBR...the coach will want an explanation and "I saw it on officiating.com" is probably not the best one I could give him. Thank you.

Tell him there is no "missed base" because the runner could not legally retreat past 3rd. He was not obligated to touch 3rd again.

[jicecone]

Once a runner aquires the right to a base, he has fulfilled his obligation for touching the base whether advancing or returning and therefore can not miss thed base he already touched.

In Fed? "Please read Situation #9 coach and direct all questions to NFHS, maybe they can explain it better."

The way I am understaning this now, (and I may be wrong), in the OP had the returning runner missed 3b when returning and then again when heading for home, you would still deny the appeal. If this is different please supply a reference.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jicecone

The way I am understanding this now, (and I may be wrong), in the OP had the returning runner missed 3b when returning and then again when heading for home, you would still deny the appeal. If this is different please supply a reference.

For FED, R1 (on third) is out on appeal. The reference is Situation 9: "Ruling: R1 is out on the valid defensive appeal."

For all other codes: deny the appeal.