To uphold or deny?

[lawump]

Bunch of umpire guys kick off the season each year by have a big dinner together at a local restaurant after our FED test. Last night was that night. During the evening one umpire shared a play he had last year, and asked if he "got it right."

The play resulted in a spirited debate. I am going to post the play, and NOT tell you my opinion. I am interested in your opinions.

FED RULES: R3. Batter hits the ball out in front of the plate. R3 comes far down the line. F2 fields the ball, and sees he has a play on R3. R3 sprints back toward third base. R3 goes back into third base standing up. He actually is going back so quickly, that he cannot stop at the bag, but rather steps on third base and continues several steps past the bag, and is standing on the outfield side of the bag. R3 is clearly going to be out, except F2 throws the ball all the way to the left field corner. R3 turns around and sprints for home (remember, he is standing two good steps on the outfield side of third base). He runs completely in foul territory and never touches third base on his way home. Defense appeals that the runner missed third base.

Do you uphold or deny the appeal? FED? OBR?

[UmpJM]

lawump,

Under FED, I would sustain the appeal.

Under OBR, I would deny it.

JM

[Ump29]

I only work under OBR so will answer based on that. Deny appeal.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

lawump,

Under FED, I would sustain the appeal.

Under OBR, I would deny it.

JM

Why would it be different? I would have an out in all 3 codes.

[jicecone]

I also have two outs. Fed and OBR

[greymule]

I had the same theoretical situation in an OBR game a few years ago. A runner who had taken a big turn around 1B had to scramble back when a quick throw was made to the bag. He made it to 1B but couldn't stop on the bag and fell about 6 feet into foul territory. The ball got away to the fence, and in advancing to 2B the runner stepped right over 1B. The defense appealed, and I upheld the appeal. A "discussion" naturally ensued, and I held that the runner had retreated "behind" 1B and was required to touch it on the way to 2B. The offense grumbled but accepted that explanation, but I admit I wasn't sure and still am not sure. It just seemed like the right call to me.

The OP reminds me of the play in which the retreating R3 overruns 3B toward left field, and then, as he stands 10 feet past 3B down the LF line, R2 closely approaches 3B but stops 6 inches from the bag. Has R2 "passed" R3? I would say no, yet I would say that R3 still has to touch 3B on his way home.

I think the OP can be argued either way, unless there's a case play or one of the authorities has given an opinion.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Why would it be different? I would have an out in all 3 codes.

bossman,

My "logic" is as follows...

Under FED I KNOW that the correct interpretation (at least this year) is that the appeal is upheld because I read the 2010 FED Interp, Situation #9 - which is essentially the same play.

Under OBR, my THINKING is that since the runner never retreated in the direction of 2B he has met his 7.02 obligation to "...touch the bases in order..." without retouching 3B and is therefore not liable to an appeal.

I can't find any interp that clarifies the question - just what I believe the rule means.

JM

[umpjim]

How does this differ from a popup or overslide at 2B with a wild throw to the outfield. Does the runner have to retouch 2B and if not can he be appealed in FED?

[ozzy6900]

I sustain the appeal in both codes. UmpJM noted that the FED 2010 Situation #9 is essentially the same thing:

SITUATION 9: R1, on third base, attempts to score on a squeeze play. B4 attempts to bunt, but misses the pitch and F2 comes up with the ball and gets R1 in a rundown between third and home. F2 eventually attempts to throw R1 out at third, but makes a bad throw into left field. R1 steps on third, but his momentum takes him several steps down the foul line behind third base. R1, seeing the bad throw, turns, misses third base as he advances to home. After R1 has touched home plate and enters the dugout, the defense calls “Time” and verbally appeals R1 missing third.
RULING: R1 is out on the valid defensive appeal. R1 must touch third base again on his way to home
plate. (8-2-1, 8-2-6c)

In OBR, R3 must touch 3rd base again on his way to home. Whenb he over ran 3rd, he is considered between 3rd and 2nd so in order to go home, he must touch 3rd. I think that many people are trying to apply "Last Time By" but it does not apply in this case.

[jicecone]

Oz, it somewhat applies and more so for OBR, because they talk about the runner being in the vicinity of the base. See BRD 2009 Appeals section. (don't have it at work). However, R3 last time by 3b, he did not touch and therefore can be out on appeal.

What I did not understand was the section that talked about not allowing the appeal during unrelaxed play and the runner can only be tagged. Is this when R3 stays in the vicinity of the base? Late at night is not always a good time to try and research this stuff!!!!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

In OBR, R3 must touch 3rd base again on his way to home. Whenb he over ran 3rd, he is considered between 3rd and 2nd so in order to go home, he must touch 3rd. I think that many people are trying to apply "Last Time By" but it does not apply in this case.

Take the same play (remember starting with R3), but when R3 overruns third, the defense makes a move to tag him. R3 runs directly to second, reaches it and is standing on the base when the defense tags him. Now what's your ruling?

Me? I'd have an out.

And, since R3 can't "retreat" to second, he can't "retreat past third." So, he's not required to touch third again.

[greymule]

Take the same play (remember starting with R3), but when R3 overruns third, the defense makes a move to tag him. R3 runs directly to second, reaches it and is standing on the base when the defense tags him. Now what's your ruling?

Me? I'd have an out.

My instinct would go the other way. I'd say that after R3 overruns 3B, he is between 3B and 2B and (1) must touch 3B on the way home, but (2) is free to retreat to 2B without touching 3B. But you might persuade me that if R3 overran on the foul side of the line, he would then have to touch 3B on his way back to 2B.

Just a slight overrun or overslide? Vicinity of the base and can go either way without touching. But I admit I'm just speculating from gut feeling. OBR authorities might well rule otherwise.

Also, it seems to me that "last time by" would apply in these cases. If R3 overran 3B down the LF line but missed 3B, and then touched 3B on the way home, he's fulfilled his obligation through "last time by."

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Take the same play (remember starting with R3), but when R3 overruns third, the defense makes a move to tag him. R3 runs directly to second, reaches it and is standing on the base when the defense tags him. Now what's your ruling?

Me? I'd have an out.

And, since R3 can't "retreat" to second, he can't "retreat past third." So, he's not required to touch third again.

I think the crucial premise of this reasoning is: R3 started the play having legally acquired 3B. Thus, he's not entitled during the play to retreat to 2B, which would constitute running the bases in reverse order.

Being legally entitled to 3B throughout the play, "last time by" does not apply, and R3 need not retouch 3B when he scores on the overthrow.

Interesting.

[scarolinablue]

Originally Posted by lawump

Do you uphold or deny the appeal? FED? OBR?

C'mon, lawump, you know in SC we don't DO appeals in FED!!!

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I think the crucial premise of this reasoning is: R3 started the play having legally acquired 3B. Thus, he's not entitled during the play to retreat to 2B, which would constitute running the bases in reverse order.

Unless he is attempting to confuse the defense or make a travesty of the game, his retreat to 2nd is legal.