Mark McGwire admits to long-term steroid use!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

You are a shameless Barry Bonds apologist and you will scale any height of ignorance on this issue to simply make a case in his defense. Bonds's actions in every phase of his life make Mark McGwire look like a Boy Scout.

A: All controlled substances--and not just those previously listed--were against MLB rules starting in 1991.

B: Unprescribed anabolic steroids have been a controlled substance since then as well.

SEE: All major league players, who used or possessed unprescribed anabolic steroids after 1991 were breaking MLB rules and federal law.

I honestly do not care Kevin. These records do not mean anything to me. Who won the games is all that matters and basing someone one who did something 100 years ago as if no one could pass them is also silly. Barry Bonds did not win any more games, neither did McGuire. Michael Jordan was not judged as truly a good player until he won something. He was one of the greatest scorers and he was not judged to be the best until he won multiple titles.

Bonds did not even win a World Series. McGuire came up small in the post season often even when they won in the late 80s with Oakland. He did not get back to another won after he left Oakland. If McGuire is a Hall of Famer, he is only that way because of his bat. And with smaller stadiums and places were the ball launches out of them without much effort. Hell there is now drug testing and look at what happen to the new Yankee Stadium. There were just about as many home runs as there ever was in the old stadium. No one pitches inside anymore and the game is played for power as opposed for pitching and defense. And you want me to be apologetic for Bonds?

I could give a crap about some record and the fact that some clown actually thinks that players that boozed it up every night and went to games on a train are better at hitting a ball than someone that has technology and training (no matter how they did it) is the reason baseball is going to continue to lack behind the other sports. I do not care what Hank Aaron did 50 years ago anymore. I certainly could give a damn what Babe Ruth did, he did not even play against the best players of his era on a regular basis. But we are outraged over some drugs when we have more teams, more sorry players and compare that against an era that did not let some of the best players even participate because of their skin color. Sorry, this is not about Bonds, McGuire or anyone of this era. No wonder the NFL and NBA pass the MLB by.

Peace

[Ump153]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You can say it is, but there was no policy to suspend or ban any player that used anything we call steroids. Either way it goes, we are trying to use revisionist history to penalize someone that did not get banned or violate any drug testing policy.
Peace

Could you quote your sources on this?

I'm just curious because according to MLB and the Mitchell Report, steroids were covered by the ban on prescription drugs taken without a prescription that went into effect in 1971 and then were specifically named and banned by MLB in 1991,

Any major league player who took steroids with or without a prescription after 1991 was in violation of the MLB ban and, if he did so without a prescription, was in violation of Federal Law.

These are facts that are backed up by the Mitchell Report and Major League Baseball.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Ump153

Could you quote your sources on this?

I'm just curious because according to MLB and the Mitchell Report, steroids were covered by the ban on prescription drugs taken without a prescription that went into effect in 1971 and then were specifically named and banned by MLB in 1991,

Any major league player who took steroids with or without a prescription after 1991 was in violation of the MLB ban and, if he did so without a prescription, was in violation of Federal Law.

These are facts that are backed up by the Mitchell Report and Major League Baseball.

Major League Baseball drug policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/pdf/jda.pdf

Yes there are sources that references what could be taken at that time.

For those that do no want to read, the policy was taken into affect in 2006.

Peace

[Ump153]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Major League Baseball drug policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/pdf/jda.pdf

Yes there are sources that references what could be taken at that time.

For those that do no want to read, the policy was taken into affect in 2006.

Peace

Clever.

Those refer to the new policy implemented after the Mitchel Report that REPLACED the ban that was already in effect since 1991. The new policy provided specific punishment rather than leaving it to the commissioner on a case by case basis. Never the less, steroids were already banned back in 1991.

Baseball's Steroid Era: Written Steroid EraTimeline

Jun. 7, 1991 – Commissioner Fay Vincent Issues Memo Regarding Steroid Use
After the U.S. Congress raises penalties for steroid possession, Commissioner Fay Vincent sends a memo to each team indicating that steroids would be added to Major League Baseball’s banned list. The memo stated: "The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited ... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids." The seven-page document didn't include a testing plan -- that had to be bargained with the union -- but it did outline treatment and penalties.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Ump153

Clever.

Those refer to the new policy implemented after the Mitchel Report that REPLACED the ban that was already in effect since 1991. The new policy provided specific punishment rather than leaving it to the commissioner on a case by case basis. Never the less, steroids were already banned back in 1991.

Baseball's Steroid Era: Written Steroid EraTimeline

Jun. 7, 1991 – Commissioner Fay Vincent Issues Memo Regarding Steroid Use
After the U.S. Congress raises penalties for steroid possession, Commissioner Fay Vincent sends a memo to each team indicating that steroids would be added to Major League Baseball’s banned list. The memo stated: "The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited ... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids." The seven-page document didn't include a testing plan -- that had to be bargained with the union -- but it did outline treatment and penalties.

What was the penalty with the old policy? A stronger letter home to mom? Did anyone miss games?

Was there testing? And how did they determine someone was using those drugs? Lie detector testing? Media reports? Parent letters to the commissioner?

I guess the Olympics got it all wrong, they actually test for substances rather than take someone's word for it.

Peace

[Ump153]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What was the penalty with the old policy? A stronger letter home to mom? Did anyone miss games?

Was there testing? And how did they determine someone was using those drugs? Lie detector testing? Media reports? Parent letters to the commissioner?

I guess the Olympics got it all wrong, they actually test for substances rather than take someone's word for it.

Peace

Stick to the topic. You have been claiming that there was no ban on steroids. That is patently false.

If you want to talk about enforcement, that's a different issue. What everyone here has been saying is that McGwire violated MLB policy and Federal law by using steroids without a prescription. And that is the truth.

The fact that he wasn't caught or or wasn't punished has nothing to do with it.

Just becuase you don't get a ticket everytime you speed doesn't mean you didn't speed.

You're starting to sound like a coach...."It's only illegal if you get caught."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Ump153

Stick to the topic. You have been claiming that there was no ban on steroids. That is patently false.

If you want to talk about enforcement, that's a different issue. What everyone here has been saying is that McGwire violated MLB policy and Federal law by using steroids without a prescription. And that is the truth.

The fact that he wasn't caught or or wasn't punished has nothing to do with it.

Just becuase you don't get a ticket everytime you speed doesn't mean you didn't speed.

You're starting to sound like a coach...."It's only illegal if you get caught."

I did not say there was absolutely no steroids ban, I said that there was not testing and they were not illegal to use for all kinds of reasons. And to say there is a ban, but we are going to look the other way is not much of a ban. You can play the semantics game all you want to, but there was no way to find out who was using and how as other sports had drug testing in place that clearly banned not only steroids but many other substances as well. And there was no policy to suspend players for such usage. The union and the owners had not agreed to such a policy so it was allowed no matter if MLB tried to say it was illegal in a memo. To make something illegal you have to have a policy and a standing punishment in place. Maybe I am missing something, but I have never seen a law that makes something illegal, but we have no punishment for the crime. That is basically what MLB did. And BTW, Big Mac took Androstenedione and had the substance in his locker in 1998. It is a steroid or has steroid substances in it and Big Mac was never suspended for it and was never told to stop using it. Bud Selig even was asked about this substance and he knew nothing about it and claimed there was no steroid problem in baseball. Mac even openly talked about it in interviews and talked about how it "helped me recover quicker from working out." Then I believe the following year MLB outlawed it, but as before did not test for it to catch people that were using the substance.

You can call it whatever you want to, unless they test for a substance, it is not illegal. Memos do not make them illegal unless you have a way to prove someone is using something. MLB turned the other way until Congress called them to the carpet and Canseco wrote a book on the topic.

Peace

[SAump]

Brian McNamee lawyer: Roger Clemens can never come clean ala Mark McGwire

[Ump153]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not say there was absolutely no steroids ban, I said that there was not testing and they were not illegal to use for all kinds of reasons.

Really?

According to MLB and the Mitchell Report and the Players Association steroids have been specifically banned since 1991.

And BTW, Big Mac took Androstenedione and had the substance in his locker in 1998. It is a steroid or has steroid substances in it and Big Mac was never suspended for it and was never told to stop using it.

Andro was legal at the time. No one has stated otherwise.

You can call it whatever you want to, unless they test for a substance, it is not illegal.

In your world perhaps. but in the real world the ban was not conditional on testing and still isn't. The ban is the ban. Testing and suspension are distinctly separate issues. Just like in the rest of the society, a criminal act is a criminal act, it is not defined by its punishment.

You may wish otherwise, but that's all it is, a wish.

[JRutledge]

Again, you can play the semantics game. How about this, name one player before there was testing that was suspended for steroid use? Just one will do.

Let us take it a step further. Bonds was linked to the Balco situation and he was never suspended and allowed to break Hank Aaron's record well after many players were linked to this company. If there was this ban, why was Bonds not suspended by MLB for using of steroid. He admitted to not knowingly taking a substance that he thought was steroids, but was found out to be some kind of steroid. If it was banned, then why was he allowed to continue to play? And if steroids were banned, what does that have to do with this discussion now? The Hall of Fame does not have a policy to keep players out that were known steroids users. There is no such policy, but you claim there was this clear ban.

Peace

[Ump153]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Again, you can play the semantics game. How about this, name one player before there was testing that was suspended for steroid use? Just one will do.

Peace

Me playing semantics? That's rich.

I have no idea if there was one. Suspension has nothing to do with the FACT that PEDS were banned.

Now, answer me this, yes or no....was steroid use by MLB players, without a prescription, illegal under law and prohibited by MLB from 1991 forward?

Hint:

According to the Mitchell Report, Congress, MLB and Mark McGwire, the answer is "yes."

Your answer is? Remember just yes or no. No "playing semantics."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Ump153

Me playing semantics? That's rich.

I have no idea if there was one. Suspension has nothing to do with the FACT that PEDS were banned.

Now, answer me this, yes or no....was steroid use by MLB players, without a prescription, illegal under law and prohibited by MLB from 1991 forward?

Hint:

According to the Mitchell Report, Congress, MLB and Mark McGwire, the answer is "yes."

Your answer is? Remember just yes or no. No "playing semantics."

But there should be. You keep talking about a ban, but what does that have to do with this discussion. Big Mac was never suspended as neither was Sosa, Bonds or even Alex Rodriquez (and he admitted to using and is a current player).

Pacman Jones was accused of getting in trouble with the law; he was suspended for a year. Michael Vick was not even convicted yet and he was suspended indefinitely by the NFL and the commissioner. But many players were accused of using a drug and in some cases proven and nothing has happen to them in Major League Baseball. There are well over 100 players in the Mitchell Report and not a single player has been suspended for what they were accused of in that report. Man, those are some really mean laws on the books.

Peace

[Ump153]

I answered your question, but you continue to refuse to answer mine.

Maybe you just forgot?

Remember, one word answer.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Ump153

I answered your question, but you continue to refuse to answer mine.

Maybe you just forgot?

Remember, one word answer.

You have not asked me a reasonable question. And no you have not answered my question. You are just playing the semantics game and saying something is banned, but showing absolutely no relevance to this discussion. The point I made awhile back is that there was no action taken by MLB for what any player took at any time. The Mitchell Report involved current players and those players have still to this day (since there was a ban and all) have not been suspended (for anything, but there was a ban remember). And guys like David Justice were also in the Mitchell Report as well, but only was in the report based on what someone said he had a conversation with someone about steroids. Nothing said that Justice was seen using or failed a drug test of any kind during his playing career. But let us not let facts get in the way of this discussion. I am still trying to figure out how you ban something, but you punish no one in the process and no one has been punished based on the report you keep referencing.

Peace

[Ump153]

Okay, Mr, Rutledge, I get the hint. You won't answer my question. So, I'll have to make do with what you've already said to demonstrate your level of understanding.

Who could forget:

"The last time I checked Steroids were legal when Mac was playing."
(MLB banned steriods in 1991 providing unspecified punishment. Testing and punishment were added by Selig in 1997)

"And it must be noted that we have no idea if and when he used them illegally "
(McGwire has admitted he used them illegally and prrovided a timeline.)

"People that have asthma and other muscle conditions can take and do take steroids. But hey, they are illegal right?"
(As we all know, these are corticosteroids and were not banned.)

"Here is the thing, we do not know what McGuire used or did not use."
(McGwire claims he illegally used banned steriods.)