Mark McGwire admits to long-term steroid use!

[JRutledge]

[QUOTE=Ump153;650891]Okay, Mr, Rutledge, I get the hint. You won't answer my question. So, I'll have to make do with what you've already said to demonstrate your level of understanding.

Originally Posted by Ump153

Who could forget:

"The last time I checked Steroids were legal when Mac was playing."
(MLB banned steriods in 1991 providing unspecified punishment. Testing and punishment were added by Selig in 1997)

And you still have not explained to me how something is illegal was not tested for. And you still have not explained to me what punishment was a result of getting caught for such substances. And you still have not explained to me who during this time frame was suspended or banned from MLB at this time. You can say there something is illegal in MLB, but there is no punishment for taking them in any way. So I stand by the fact that these substances were legal because even the people in the Mitchell Report that are current players still have not been punished for either taking them or admitting to taking them. And I am not the only one that has said that. Many media people have said the very same thing and they cover the sport. This is not a new or novel idea I am talking about. A memo alone does not make something illegal. You have to have a policy to verify something illegal is being done and punish those that violate the laws.

Mac did not get punished or violate any drug policy in his entire career. And he certainly did not get punished in 1998 when he said he took them during his record setting year.

Originally Posted by Ump153

"And it must be noted that we have no idea if and when he used them illegally "
(McGwire has admitted he used them illegally and prrovided a timeline.)

Illegally meaning the law. In other words, he was not prosecuted for having them in possession (which is illegal without a prescription). He was not ever criminally charged for using (which is illegal without prescription). No doctor was charged for giving them to him. He never stated in the interview where he got steroids from or how he got them (he had to get them from somewhere). He only admitted to taking them, he did not say he got them illegally. You can still get steroids legally under the right circumstances. You can even get HGH legally under the right circumstances. HGH is used for anti-aging purposes, but if you play professional and amateur sports, you will not be able to play while taking them and they are found in your system with a drug test.

Originally Posted by Ump153

"People that have asthma and other muscle conditions can take and do take steroids. But hey, they are illegal right?"
(As we all know, these are corticosteroids and were not banned.)

Are you saying that only anabolic steroids the only illegal substances in MLB? I do recall that Manny Ramirez was suspended this past year for a substance that was not a steroid. If I recall it was a substance for a pregnant woman to use but somehow helpful for a man to use as a PED. Which again goes back to my original position on this, MLB did not have a comprehensive drug testing policy. Saying you cannot use something and never test for it with urine or blood test is not comprehensive. And you forgot to quote my comments about the NFL and how they put a player on the drug program that tested positive for a ban substance that he used for an inhaler for his Asthma medication. Again, the NFL had to back off because he had a prescription to this substance. MLB had no such policy and allowed players to take things like Andro (which was banned in the NFL too in 1998) but MLB turned the other way.

Being from Chicago I remember Jim Miller who was a QB in the early 2000s was suspended for taking an over the counter medication and it was found in a drug test. He was suspended and put on the drug program in the NFL. This was not a steroid, but something found in common over the counter legal drug that anyone can buy he was suspended for. And when he tried to say he did not know this was banned, he was not given a pass by anyone. MLB had no such policy and allowed their players to take anything. Oh, I forgot, they banned steroids but they did not test for them. Riiiiggghhhtttt!!!!

Originally Posted by Ump153

"Here is the thing, we do not know what McGuire used or did not use."
(McGwire claims he illegally used banned steriods.)

What was the substance that Big Mac took? Do you know? Did he say in his interviews on MLB Network and ESPN the last couple of days? I will be waiting for the substance (very specific) name as we do not know what he took and in what doses. He never said how he got them or who gave them to him (which still could have been from a doctor for all we know).

I realize reading and understanding are hard for some people, but you have not answered any of these questions.

Peace

[grunewar]

Jose Canseco: Mark McGwire lying about steroid use - MLB News - FOX Sports on MSN

[ozzy6900]

Who really gives a crap anyway? Does it affect you or your paycheck? All this mess does is bring baseball down yet another notch. Baseball banned the Chicago boys but kept a beer toting philanderer like the Babe. They threw out Rose because he put a black eye on the Game yet they turned the other way with "juice". Face it, Baseball just does as it pleases to keep face and all the pi$$ing and moaning from the fans won't do jack crap to fix it. Personally, I could care less who is in the Hall of Flame because it does nothing for me or my life. My input as to who gets into the Hall means nothing so I don't bother to argue. Baseball is like the Government. Don't do this today but tomorrow you can do it all you want - as long as we are not looking.

Get a life, people! You are just umpires and fans of the Game. try to remember your place!

[Kevin Finnerty]

"Beer toting philanderer"?? You're talking about Babe Ruth!

You are being astoundingly shallow in your judgment of the man who is the single greatest contributor the game has ever known. He was also the most famous and popular man in American life in the first half of the 20th century.

And you're going to take it all away by highlighting his beer drinking and philandering? And you are the judge? You interpret the rules by which all should live? I suppose if we all just sit back and only listen, you can tell us all how to lead a perfect life like yours.

Try to remember your place.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I realize reading and understanding are hard for some people ...

I think this says it all about your struggles with fully understanding this issue, and how it is being addressed.

[PeteBooth]

MLB has been a mess ever since they got rid of the "Traditional" Commissioners role and named Bud Sileg an owner Commissioner. Had their been a TRUE Commissioner there would have been testing.

It wasn't until MLB got Embarrased on Nat'l TV during the Congrsssional hearings that BUD did anything. Also, there STILL is no test for HGH.

IMO, Mac is SELFISH as evidenced by his admitting Steroid use AT THIS TIME. Why!

1. I think Bob Costas NAILED it when he talked about the statute of limitations being up. I think it was 5 years.

2. Most of America especially those in NY where the Jets advanced to the next round are in NFL mode and therefore, Mac wouldn't be a major headline for too long. Today most of the talk shows and nation are back to football.

3. He wanted to get this "out of the way" before Spring Training so he doesn't have a big media circus.

Also, what a joke of answer when Mac said that steroids had no bearing on his hitting 70Hr.s He used the "stuff" strictly as a healing agent and that GOD gave him this great gift. He talked about LL , legion and HS ball. What a joke of an answer.

Hey Mac hate to break it to you but Micky Mantel (prior to his injury and bout with alcohol) had as much GOD given talent as any athlete and instead of using booze if Mick used the juice he most likely would have hit at least 800 HR's. What about Frank Robinson, Willie Mays and Hank. You think you had more GOD given talent then those folks. But that is America. people "bought into" ARODS Story and they most likely will by into Mac's story as well.

I too do not give a hoot about the Hall, HOWEVER, if MLB is going to vote these cheaters in then IMO they need to Re-think about Rose and Shoeless Joe who as I mentioned previously in actuality never took the money.

Pete Booth

[Kevin Finnerty]

Rose gambled freely as a player and a manager for years and went to prison for tax evasion. Jackson was a small part of one fixing scheme.

You can't compare Rose's and Jackson's cases. Rose's risk to the game was significantly worse.

[PeteBooth]

Obviously that is matter of opinion.

Cheating is Cheating. It's just a matter of which type of Cheating you condone. Also, how was Rose's risk to the game significanlty worse then those that cheated using the "Juice".

Paul Horning bet on football and was suspended for a year BUT that did not stop him from being elected into the PRO football Hall of fame.

If the Hall is about CHARACTER then at least 75% of the players already inducted should not be in there.

Also, IMO Shoeless Joe did not "throw" the game and NEVER did take the money. He was an innocent bystander who got caught up in the mess.

Pete Booth

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

You can't compare Rose's and Jackson's cases. Rose's risk to the game was significantly worse.

Isn't that a comparison?

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Ump153

Okay, Mr, Rutledge, I get the hint. You won't answer my question. So, I'll have to make do with what you've already said to demonstrate your level of understanding.

Who could forget:

"The last time I checked Steroids were legal when Mac was playing."
(MLB banned steriods in 1991 providing unspecified punishment. Testing and punishment were added by Selig in 1997)

"And it must be noted that we have no idea if and when he used them illegally "
(McGwire has admitted he used them illegally and prrovided a timeline.)

"People that have asthma and other muscle conditions can take and do take steroids. But hey, they are illegal right?"
(As we all know, these are corticosteroids and were not banned.)

"Here is the thing, we do not know what McGuire used or did not use."
(McGwire claims he illegally used banned steriods.)

Debating JR is like the proverbial "nailing jello to the wall." His logic is fluid with no constraints. He ignores facts. He creates facts. He changes his positions then denies doing so. He will deny saying something that can still be seen in his prior posts. Then he will lock on an argument that is so absurd it can hardly be debated within the confines of broadband. (For example, "if no one has been punished for a certain action, no law or prohibition against that action can exist.")

Fortunately he is unique. If you will note, not one of over a hundred posters at this site agrees with him, which gives us hope for this site.

My advice is to give up. You can present facts, you can demonstrate reality, you can discuss possibilities. You can't make someone think.

[jkumpire]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

Rose gambled freely as a player and a manager for years and went to prison for tax evasion. Jackson was a small part of one fixing scheme.

You can't compare Rose's and Jackson's cases. Rose's risk to the game was significantly worse.

Kevin,

You are right: Shoeless Joe was acquitted in a trial over the illegalities of the Blacksox scandal, and therefore he should be eligible for the Hall of Fame. Pete Rose is a different case, as you state, and should never, ever be considered, which is a great tragedy.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Obviously that is matter of opinion.

Cheating is Cheating. It's just a matter of which type of Cheating you condone. Also, how was Rose's risk to the game significanlty worse then those that cheated using the "Juice".

If the Hall is about CHARACTER then at least 75% of the players already inducted should not be in there.

Also, IMO Shoeless Joe did not "throw" the game and NEVER did take the money. He was an innocent bystander who got caught up in the mess.

Pete Booth

No, cheating is not cheating. That is a narrow and dangerous over-simplification. There are degrees to everything. And that's not a matter of opinion, it's the way our entire system works.

And if you can't discern the difference between an individual trying to enhance his performance, and a MANAGER trying to illegally capitalize on his team's performance by gambling on their games, I don't know how to help you.

Rose violated baseball's sacred code as a player AND as a manager for a dozen years. And he went to jail for tax evasion! And everyone around him went to prison for an array of felonies, including cocaine trafficking! Rose's campaign, by its mere duration, was a series of violations of a drastically higher degree than Jackson's, or any other gambler or certainly any juicer or bat corker.

If you want to lump all kinds of cheaters together and brand them all, you go right ahead. I have a broad and thoughtful approach, and I can't be confined to such a simple outlook.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Isn't that a comparison?

Semantics.

Here goes: You can't liken Jackson's violation to Rose's.

And I thank you for making me scratch my head and change that.

[dash_riprock]

Rose is a low-life and he broke laws (federal and baseball), but he never bet against his own team and he tried to win every game 100-0. That doesn't mean anything to the HOF suits, but it does to me.

[Kevin Finnerty]

When you only bet on your team, it is a signal to gambling insiders that there is a reason to bet against the Reds that day.

One day, Pete left his post in the Reds dugout to watch the Belmont---right in the middle of a game, and during the '89 investigation that led to his banishment!

The Reds, and winning baseball games was a sidelight to Rose's nefarious existence.