Fun with PAT's, New Term 7GP

[mcrowder]

First, I hereby request that we change the term TWP (Third World Play) to 7GP (7th Grade Play).

2005 NCAA Rules (Texas)
Game 1 - B team. Home team has just scored to make it 6-6 and is lined up to kick their PAT. Kick slams into the line as the rush comes in. Blocked by the ankles of the DT and hits the ground by the center's feet. Never crossed NZ.

Everyone stands around for a second, and as the center picks it up, the home team's coach yells that the ball is dead. He yells this about 4 times. Proud of my crew as no one blows a whistle. Center then walks into the endzone as the defense stands around.

Home team ends up winning 7-6 (running a PAT in 7th grade in this district is 1 point, while kicking is 2).

Game 2 - A team. Home team has just scored to make it 20-0 and is linde up to kick their PAT. They are lined up with 7 on the line and 3 in the backfield. I've blown it ready. Player 11 comes running behind me, and is in about the same position as Nick Saban's red flag when the ball is snapped. No one moves. Holder still has the knee down and is holding the ball looking at me. Player 11 makes it to his position, visiting coach yelling, "Come on, you have to call SOMEthing." Again, proud of my crew for not blowing a whistle. Holder then throws the ball back to center, who drops it. I blow my whistle - incomplete pass, PAT no good.

In hindsight, I realize I failed to rule illegal motion on player 11, who was most likely moving forward when the ball was snapped (although this WAS behind me), and failed to rule illegal touching on the offense when the ball hit the center. But at least since the ball hit the ground, both fouls would have been declined.

I started envisioning what would have happened had the center caught the ball, bent over, snapped it again, and then kicked it. I suppose we'd have had 3 fouls (illegal motion, illegal touching, illegal kick (??? - I'm actually having trouble finding the rule this morning that says you can't scrimmage kick after a completed pass behind the LOS)), all of which would allow a rekick after a 5 yard penalty.

[Bob M.]

NOTE TO SELF: Stay away from 7th grade football!

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

First, I hereby request that we change the term TWP .

I started envisioning what would have happened had the center caught the ball, bent over, snapped it again, and then kicked it. I suppose we'd have had 3 fouls (illegal motion, illegal touching, illegal kick (??? - I'm actually having trouble finding the rule this morning that says you can't scrimmage kick after a completed pass behind the LOS)), all of which would allow a rekick after a 5 yard penalty.

There is no such rule that don't allow the kick. In fact a runner can run beyond the NZ and come back behind the NZ and kick it. Highly unlikely, but the snapper could even snap the ball again to the holder and then have the ball kicked. Rule: 2-15-7. So in your envisioned play, the only fouls you'd have are illegal shift, failure of the substitute to be between the 9 yard marks (7-1-3-a-2), and illegal touching.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

There is no such rule that don't allow the kick. In fact a runner can run beyond the NZ and come back behind the NZ and kick it. Highly unlikely, but the snapper could even snap the ball again to the holder and then have the ball kicked. Rule: 2-15-7. So in your envisioned play, the only fouls you'd have are illegal shift, failure of the substitute to be between the 9 yard marks (7-1-3-a-2), and illegal touching.

Now that you've made me think of it, he probably was within the 9 yard marks. He had just entered my peripheral vision as the ball was snapped. I was wide (3-man mechanics) on his side of the field, but probably not as wide as the 9-yard marks.

We did have one interesting question on this. The holder was on his knee when he received the legal snap. However, he was still on his knee when he threw it back to the center. Would this not kill the play, as he was no longer a holder, but a ball carrier (a passer) who had a knee on the ground.

[JasonTX]

When he passed the ball that was all legal since a player was in postion to kick the ball. The holder is excempt from being down per 4-1-3-b exception. The next question is, would he be ruled down if the snapper snapped the ball back to him? That would all hinge on rules 2-27-3-b. Is this still a scrimmage kick play after the ball is snapped back to him? Scrimmage kick play is defined in rule 2-30-3. We know that we can have a pass play and a running play all on one down. The question is can we also have a pass play, running play and a scrimmage kick play on one down?

[OverAndBack]

I thought a holder specifically can't throw from his knee. He is exempt from being down with his knee touching, but he can't pass unless he stands up, in my understanding of it.

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

I thought a holder specifically can't throw from his knee. He is exempt from being down with his knee touching, but he can't pass unless he stands up, in my understanding of it.

He can pass. See the exception. 4-1-3-b: The ball remains alive when and offensive player has simulated a kick or is in position to kick the ball held for a place kick by a teammate. The ball may be kicked, passed, or advanced by rule. I believe the passing rule you are referring to was a NFHS rule, but not an NCAA rule.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

I thought a holder specifically can't throw from his knee. He is exempt from being down with his knee touching, but he can't pass unless he stands up, in my understanding of it.

REPLY: That's true for Federation. NCAA rules are different. He can throw from his knee.

[OverAndBack]

Ah, you are correct. Thank you. I knew I had heard the rule somewhere. Figures it was NFHS and not NCAA.

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: That's true for Federation. NCAA rules are different. He can throw from his knee.

Someone help me. What I am I doing here learning the NFHS rules. I don't work Fed ball.

[Warrenkicker]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

Someone help me. What I am I doing here learning the NFHS rules. I don't work Fed ball.

I was wondering why you were posting so often here. And then posting rules references which are close to ours but not quite the same. But you do have the right answers for the most part and are working from a much more well-written rules book.