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Old Sat Oct 17, 2009, 10:17pm
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Ball four, runners moving, pass ball, out of play...

Happened tonight during the ALCS, in the 4th or 5th inning. I was listening to it on the radio while driving and having a conversation so forgive me for not having the specifics for the who, but the what was this:

Runners on 1st and 2nd, 3-2 with 2 outs. Runners take off with the pitch. Its in the dirt and gets by Molina and bounces out of play. The hitter is awarded 1st on the walk, and the runners are held at 2nd and 3rd.

Shouldn't the moving runners have been awarded the base they were headed for, as well as one extra base as a result of the ball bouncing out of play? So the end result would have been one run scores, and two runners remain at 2nd and 3rd?

Nobody on the radio even mentioned it, so I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here. Sure would appreciate some clarity on this Thanks guys.
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Old Sat Oct 17, 2009, 10:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonWilliam View Post
Happened tonight during the ALCS, in the 4th or 5th inning. I was listening to it on the radio while driving and having a conversation so forgive me for not having the specifics for the who, but the what was this:

Runners on 1st and 2nd, 3-2 with 2 outs. Runners take off with the pitch. Its in the dirt and gets by Molina and bounces out of play. The hitter is awarded 1st on the walk, and the runners are held at 2nd and 3rd.

Shouldn't the moving runners have been awarded the base they were headed for, as well as one extra base as a result of the ball bouncing out of play? So the end result would have been one run scores, and two runners remain at 2nd and 3rd?

Nobody on the radio even mentioned it, so I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here. Sure would appreciate some clarity on this Thanks guys.
The ball went out of play on a pitch. The runners are awarded 1 base from their position at the time of the pitch. One base from the rubber, two from the field is the general rule of thumb for fans to grasp.
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Old Sat Oct 17, 2009, 10:24pm
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Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve View Post
The ball went out of play on a pitch. The runners are awarded 1 base from their position at the time of the pitch. One base from the rubber, two from the field is the general rule of thumb for fans to grasp.
Right... but the pitch resulted in a walk. So the walk happened first, which means the runners were immediately awarded one base, then the ball went out of play, meaning the runners should have been awarded one more base. No?
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Old Sat Oct 17, 2009, 10:30pm
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Originally Posted by JasonWilliam View Post
Right... but the pitch resulted in a walk. So the walk happened first, which means the runners were immediately awarded one base, then the ball went out of play, meaning the runners should have been awarded one more base. No?
No. The runners are awarded bases (in this case) from their position at the Time of the Pitch, which is when the pitcher starts his motion. It's the same as if the pitcher, while on the rubber, steps to first and tries to pick off the runner, but the ball goes into the stands. One base per runner. If he steps back off the rubber, then throws wildly to first into the stands, the runners each get two bases. The walk in this case has nothing to do with the award, only the position of the pitcher (on the rubber), and the runners' positions at the Time of the Pitch. The runners weren't awarded bases, they were forced to advance on the base on balls.
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Old Sat Oct 17, 2009, 10:34pm
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Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve View Post
No. The runners are awarded bases (in this case) from their position at the Time of the Pitch, which is when the pitcher starts his motion. It's the same as if the pitcher, while on the rubber, steps to first and tries to pick off the runner, but the ball goes into the stands. One base per runner. If he steps back off the rubber, then throws wildly to first into the stands, the runners each get two bases. The walk in this case has nothing to do with the award, only the position of the pitcher (on the rubber), and the runners' positions at the Time of the Pitch. The runners weren't awarded bases, they were forced to advance on the base on balls.
I'm a little confused, so bear with me? Honestly I'm trying to understand...

Let me change the scenario a bit. Lets say bases are empty. Ball four bounces out of play. Does the hitter end up at first or second base?
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Old Sat Oct 17, 2009, 10:35pm
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Rule:

7.05 Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance—

(h) One base, if a ball, pitched to the batter, or thrown by the pitcher from his position on the pitcher’s plate to a base to catch a runner, goes into a stand or a bench, or over or through a field fence or backstop. The ball is dead;

APPROVED RULING: When a wild pitch or passed ball goes through or by the catcher, or deflects off the catcher, and goes directly into the dugout, stands, above the break, or any area where the ball is dead, the awarding of bases shall be one base. One base shall also be awarded if the pitcher while in contact with the rubber, throws to a base, and the throw goes directly into the stands or into any area where the ball is dead.
If, however, the pitched or thrown ball goes through or by the catcher or through the fielder, and remains on the playing field, and is subsequently kicked or deflected into the dugout, stands or other area where the ball is dead, the awarding of bases shall be two bases from position of runners at the time of the pitch or throw.
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Old Sat Oct 17, 2009, 10:36pm
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Originally Posted by JasonWilliam View Post
I'm a little confused, so bear with me? Honestly I'm trying to understand...

Let me change the scenario a bit. Lets say bases are empty. Ball four bounces out of play. Does the hitter end up at first or second base?
First base. He was at home plate as a batter when the ball went out of play. One base.
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Old Sat Oct 17, 2009, 10:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve View Post
Rule:

7.05 Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance—

(h) One base, if a ball, pitched to the batter, or thrown by the pitcher from his position on the pitcher’s plate to a base to catch a runner, goes into a stand or a bench, or over or through a field fence or backstop. The ball is dead;

APPROVED RULING: When a wild pitch or passed ball goes through or by the catcher, or deflects off the catcher, and goes directly into the dugout, stands, above the break, or any area where the ball is dead, the awarding of bases shall be one base. One base shall also be awarded if the pitcher while in contact with the rubber, throws to a base, and the throw goes directly into the stands or into any area where the ball is dead.
If, however, the pitched or thrown ball goes through or by the catcher or through the fielder, and remains on the playing field, and is subsequently kicked or deflected into the dugout, stands or other area where the ball is dead, the awarding of bases shall be two bases from position of runners at the time of the pitch or throw.
Ah there we go. I had read 7.05 before posting, but I missed the APPROVED RULING portion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve View Post
First base. He was at home plate as a batter when the ball went out of play. One base.
Gotcha. Makes sense after having read the approved ruling.

Thanks for the help. I played for 20 years and this happened to me once; I was pitching, threw a wild pitch for ball four that ended up out of play (directly; no deflection or kick). The ump awarded the batter 2nd base. That has always stuck in my head as a point of confusion. Not so any longer.

Thanks for all the help

Last edited by JasonWilliam; Sat Oct 17, 2009 at 10:52pm.
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Old Sat Oct 17, 2009, 10:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonWilliam View Post
I played for 20 years and this happened to me once; I was the pitching, threw a wild pitch for ball four that ended up out of play (directly; no deflection or kick). The ump awarded the batter 2nd base. That has always stuck in my head as a point of confusion. Not so any longer.
This umpire you had 20 years ago screwed the pooch!
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Old Sat Oct 17, 2009, 10:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve View Post
This umpire you had 20 years ago screwed the pooch!
LOL I played for 20 years. This happened in college

Thanks again guys.
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Old Sat Oct 17, 2009, 10:49pm
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Originally Posted by Ump153 View Post
This is never how bases are awarded in any situation. The awarded base(s) are measured from last legally occupied base time at of pitch, time of throw, time of interference...

Your method is just a version of the mythical "one plus one".
I see your point. I worded that poorly. It doesn't matter that the runners were moving.

Last edited by JasonWilliam; Sat Oct 17, 2009 at 10:52pm.
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Old Mon Oct 19, 2009, 10:38am
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"One plus one" might be the most cited nonexistent rule in baseball.
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Old Mon Oct 19, 2009, 10:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule View Post
"One plus one" might be the most cited nonexistent rule in baseball.
Yup, had it last weekend. R1 in run down with R3 trying to score, they drive R1 back to the first and throw out of play. I give R1 third, and get the usual "base he was going to plus one" B.S.
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Old Mon Oct 19, 2009, 09:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule View Post
"One plus one" might be the most cited nonexistent rule in baseball.
I would say it's the "he's gotta move" on the fastball between the shoulder blades.
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Old Mon Oct 19, 2009, 09:50pm
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Originally Posted by johnnyg08 View Post
I would say it's the "he's gotta move" on the fastball between the shoulder blades.
I had some moron in the stands tell me this on Saturday. Fastball drilled into the back of the batter: "He didn't make an attempt to get out of the way, Bluuuuuuuue."

What a maroon.
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