Watching runners away from the ball.

[Snorg]

This happened a few years ago. 16-18 yr old regional tournament, OBR, four-man crew (I'm at 2nd). Runner at 1st base off with the pitch, batter grounds to F6. I position myself for a play at 2B. F6 looks at 2B, then thinks better of it and throws to first. I (perhaps because I was used to doing two-man all season) turn to watch the play at 1B. After the play coach calls time, comes to me, and says that his runner was obstructed by F6 after rounding 2B. I admitted to him that I didn't see it. Coach didn't make too a big stink, and that was that......
I know you don't discuss four-man all that often, but what should I have done there? Watch the runner into and around 2B, while I have my back to the ball and a play at first base? When do I turn to find the ball again?

Also, had this been a two-man crew, I have to follow the ball to 1B, so is the PU watching that runner around second?

Just curious, thanks....

[briancurtin]

Originally Posted by Snorg

Also, had this been a two-man crew, I have to follow the ball to 1B, so is the PU watching that runner around second?

Just curious, thanks....

he should be

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by briancurtin

he should be

Especially if he has called out "Ive Got 3rd!" and is hustling down that line. But if he instead is moving down the 1B line to check for a possible pulled foot, ..............

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Fritz

Especially if he has called out "Ive Got 3rd!" and is hustling down that line. But if he instead is moving down the 1B line to check for a possible pulled foot, ..............

Now I'm confused. Why would the PU be covering 3rd on a ball hit to the infield in 2, 3, or 4 man mechanics? He has the plate, last I looked. He should be watching for possible INT and OBS violations.

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by Snorg

This happened a few years ago. 16-18 yr old regional tournament, OBR, four-man crew (I'm at 2nd). Runner at 1st base off with the pitch, batter grounds to F6. I position myself for a play at 2B. F6 looks at 2B, then thinks better of it and throws to first. I (perhaps because I was used to doing two-man all season) turn to watch the play at 1B. After the play coach calls time, comes to me, and says that his runner was obstructed by F6 after rounding 2B. I admitted to him that I didn't see it. Coach didn't make too a big stink, and that was that......
I know you don't discuss four-man all that often, but what should I have done there? Watch the runner into and around 2B, while I have my back to the ball and a play at first base? When do I turn to find the ball again?

Also, had this been a two-man crew, I have to follow the ball to 1B, so is the PU watching that runner around second?

Originally Posted by Snorg

Just curious, thanks....

Working 3 / 4 person system can in some ways be a detriment if you are not used to it. Most of the ball we call utilizes the 2 person mechanics and I agree some things become "second nature" because that's the way we do it most of the year.

In a 2 person system, it is the PU's job to watch for any interference (especially in FED where there is the FPSR) on the part of R1 and also any OBS on the part of either F4/F6 because as soon as F4/F6 releases the ball, the BU is getting ready for a possible "banger" at first and is not watching the runner as that is the PU's job.

In a 4 person crew, you should not follow the ball to first because there is another umpire there to make that call, however, you are so used to making that call yourself that it happens. That's why IMO, it is even more important to have a solid Pre-Game utilizing the3/4 person system then in a 2 person system. The PU as a pre-cautionary should be ready to call the OBS if he sees that you are not watching the play.

Pete Booth

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

[I]

Working 3 / 4 person system can in some ways be a detriment if you are not used to it. Most of the ball we call utilizes the 2 person mechanics and I agree some things become "second nature" because that's the way we do it most of the year.

In a 2 person system, it is the PU's job to watch for any interference (especially in FED where there is the FPSR) on the part of R1 and also any OBS on the part of either F4/F6 because as soon as F4/F6 releases the ball, the BU is getting ready for a possible "banger" at first and is not watching the runner as that is the PU's job.

In a 4 person crew, you should not follow the ball to first because there is another umpire there to make that call, however, you are so used to making that call yourself that it happens. That's why IMO, it is even more important to have a solid Pre-Game utilizing the3/4 person system then in a 2 person system. The PU as a pre-cautionary should be ready to call the OBS if he sees that you are not watching the play.

Pete Booth

Pete,

That may be FED mechanics (We won't get into THAT discussion). The proper mechanic here would be U2 has all plays into/back to 2B, including interference/obstruction.

PU is following BR to 1B, just as if there are no runners. PU has all plays at HP as well.

U3 is drifting into foul territory by 3B in case a play goes that direction. He can assist on int/obs at 2B, though he would not have a very good angle.

So in this case, yes U2 messed up. Proper pre-game and training would fix that.

[GarthB]

I will disagree slightly. In those few camps I've attended that spent time on three and four man instruct that just as in two man, nothing happens without the ball. You need to be aware of the ball, whatever position you are working.

True, U2 has responsibility for the runner back into second, but he won't know if a play is coming without being aware of the status of the ball. He needs to be watching both his runner and the ball.

[SanDiegoSteve]

What Garth said, plus it is likely that if R1 rounds 2nd base and is contacted by F6, the ball may very well be on its way back to 2nd, so U2 needs to be alert to that. He should resemble a fan watching a tennis match with his head on a swivel, staying with the runner and watching for OBS, then to 1st to pick up the ball in case of a throw.

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I will disagree slightly. In those few camps I've attended that spent time on three and four man instruct that just as in two man, nothing happens without the ball. You need to be aware of the ball, whatever position you are working.

True, U2 has responsibility for the runner back into second, but he won't know if a play is coming without being aware of the status of the ball. He needs to be watching both his runner and the ball.

Open up the view by dropping back into the 3B side of the working area AWAY from 2B. Easy to see int/obs & any play back to 2B. (This is why it's easier in 3 man, as U3 would normally be in C to start with).

Working a fair amount of 3/4 umpire games on the big field helps. It IS difficult to get the small things right when we do 2 man 99.955 of the time. This is one of the few times where it's easier on the 60' field ...

[RPatrino]

SoCal is completely correct. We need to utilize the working area to our advantage because it allows us to open our field of vision and let's us see both the play and the area around 2nd.

We need to be able to see that obstruction, particularly in a 3 or 4 man crew.

Also, in 2 man, the PU does not bust down to 3rd with a runner on 1st and the ball STILL in the infield. He should be looking for interference/obstruction at 2b.

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Also, in 2 man, the PU does not bust down to 3rd with a runner on 1st and the ball STILL in the infield. He should be looking for interference/obstruction at 2b.

Bob, that is what I meant in my earlier post in case I was misleading. In the 2-man I usually work, I'm tracking the runner copming around 2nd and telling my partner I've got 3rd if the runner comes so BU can move closer to the play at 1B. I don't go all the way down to 3rd unless I see the runner at second take off for the bag though.

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by Fritz

Bob, that is what I meant in my earlier post in case I was misleading. In the 2-man I usually work, I'm tracking the runner copming around 2nd and telling my partner I've got 3rd if the runner comes so BU can move closer to the play at 1B. I don't go all the way down to 3rd unless I see the runner at second take off for the bag though.

With two umpires (using current mechanics), BU has BOTH plays when the ball stays in the infield. PU has pulled foot/swipe tag assist at 1B & obs/int at 2B. The only time PU would normally cover 3B would in a rundown situation btw 2b/3B.