Ball Four, in the dirt

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

First of all, when did it become common practice in MLB to get a new baseball every time a ball touches the ground?

August 23, 1974, 5th inning

Ball four is in the dirt but caught cleanly by the catcher. The batter trots off to first base as the catcher hands the ball to the PU who exchanges it for a new ball.

Huh?

The ball is live and in play! We have a baserunner!

Everyone is relaxed at this point. It's not LL -- the chances of a baserunner (especially the BR) advancing here are less than .001%.

It's much the same as a coach requesting and being granted time to go out to the pitcher just after ball 4.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's much the same as a coach requesting and being granted time to go out to the pitcher just after ball 4.

I understand - but most managers understand that they can't walk out onto the field before the runner reaches first - nor will time be called until he does.

Are you saying you immediately kill the ball the moment the manager indicates that he wants to walk out onto the field and talk to his pitcher based on the low probability that the runner will advance or that the catcher's throw-back will be wild?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

I understand - but most managers understand that they can't walk out onto the field before the runner reaches first - nor will time be called until he does.

In MLB they can, and do (by accepted practice).

Are you saying you immediately kill the ball the moment the manager indicates that he wants to walk out onto the field and talk to his pitcher based on the low probability that the runner will advance or that the catcher's throw-back will be wild?

Yes, in all the games I do.

To be clear, "immediately" means that I take about a second to see if BR is running hard to first on the walk, or is just strolling down there. 99.5% of the time it's the latter, and I grant time before BR reaches first.

Let's try another analogy:

Runners are supposed to retouch their bases after a foul, and the umpire isn't supposed to put the ball in play until they do. Yet, almost all of us put the ball in play when both teams indicate (by their actions) that they are ready for play to resume -- the runner is "close enough" to the base so that neither team gains an advantage.

It's the same with the exchange of the ball (in MLB) and the granting of time -- both teams have indicated that they are prepared for play to stop, even though the literal rule does not allow play to stop yet.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

In MLB they can, and do (by accepted practice).

I disagree that the managers walk out onto the field in a MLB game before the BR reaches first on a walk.

Unlike Little League and HS fields, it is such a long walk that, for that reason alone, it never happens. Plus, they tend to saunter out there so slowly - it is never seen.

Sure, they may come out of the dugout and start heading that way, but the batter has usually reached first by the time they get anywhere near the foul line. Plus, if you've ever noticed, most coaches do not even gesture to the PU for time until some time after they have emerged from the dugout.

I'm going to start watching more closely - but I don't think I've ever seen a manager cross the foul line before the BR has reached first in a MLB game.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

I disagree that the managers walk out onto the field in a MLB game before the BR reaches first on a walk.

Unlike Little League and HS fields, it is such a long walk that, for that reason alone, it never happens. Plus, they tend to saunter out there so slowly - it is never seen.

Sure, they may come out of the dugout and start heading that way, but the batter has usually reached first by the time they get anywhere near the foul line.

David watch again. I bet we could fill this Forum with CONCRETE examples of a manager heading to the mound way before B1 reaches first base. This is accepted practice at the major league level.

How many times have you watched Joe Torre motioning for the great Rivera when the previous F1 walked the batter. The batter no sooner tosses his bat down and out comes Torre motioning for MO and it's not just Torre.


Back in the day you had guys really doctoring the baseball like Gaylord Perry. Since MLB is a billion dollar industry, they can afford new baseballs. Also, look at the REAL picture. Whenever an outfielder makes a catch for the third out it's commonplace for him to simply toss the ball in the stands.

Same is true for the ball Boys/Girls on the first/ third base side. They also toss balls into the stands etc.

FWIW you cannot compare what is done or accepted in MLB to what we do. Heck I bet most of us umpired games where we only had 1 / 2 baseballs left (scuffed or not) and if they were lost we were down to the "real scraps" that's the world of amateur baseball NOT even close to MLB.

Pete Booth

[David Emerling]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;623442]

David watch again. I bet we could fill this Forum with CONCRETE examples of a manager heading to the mound way before B1 reaches first base. This is accepted practice at the major league level.

How many times have you watched Joe Torre motioning for the great Rivera when the previous F1 walked the batter. The batter no sooner tosses his bat down and out comes Torre motioning for MO and it's not just Torre.


Back in the day you had guys really doctoring the baseball like Gaylord Perry. Since MLB is a billion dollar industry, they can afford new baseballs. Also, look at the REAL picture. Whenever an outfielder makes a catch for the third out it's commonplace for him to simply toss the ball in the stands.

Same is true for the ball Boys/Girls on the first/ third base side. They also toss balls into the stands etc.

FWIW you cannot compare what is done or accepted in MLB to what we do. Heck I bet most of us umpired games where we only had 1 / 2 baseballs left (scuffed or not) and if they were lost we were down to the "real scraps" that's the world of amateur baseball NOT even close to MLB.

Pete Booth

First of all, I agree that it is common for managers to exit the dugout before the batter reaches first but I disagree that they are actually on the field (i.e. crosses the foul line) before the BR reaches first - not even Joe Torre.

This thread has taken many twists. I do not pretend to suggest that what is done at the MLB level should always apply to amateur levels, and vice versa.

Two simple points:

1) I just expressed the opinion that I find it mildly annoying and anal as to how the ball-switching occurs so frequently at the MLB level, and

2) I found it mildly curious how there seems to be no concern that this switching occurs during a live ball situation where a runner is advancing.

I understand the explanations. I understand the unlikelihood that the BR is going to advance to 2nd.

Bob Jenkins thought it was analogous to runners "returning" after a foul ball. I don't think that is completely analogous because those runners are clearly not advancing whereas the BR is most definitely advancing. Yet, I see his point, and it's probably a good one.

Personally, while a BR is trotting down to 1st I would prefer to see the catcher throw the ball back to the pitcher -or- at least ask for a new ball -or- wait for me to hand him a new ball. Just as I do not honor a request for time by a relay man in the outfield, even though the runners have apparently stopped advancing. At least get the ball out of the outfield and into the infield before you start asking me to kill the play. Just like I do not honor an immediate request for time every time a runner returns to a base after a pickoff attempt unless, of course, we have one of those obnoxious fielders who will never take their glove off the runner. I say, throw the ball back to the pitcher and get up - all while the ball is live. Now, if they have a belt full of dirt, that's a different matter.

[eagle_12]

This is MLB. That's the way they do it. Also it's a time saver in a sport that is trying to save time and make the experience more enjoyable.

If they changed there practices this is how it would go. Ball 4 in dirt. Catcher asks for a new ball. Ump says "I can't yet, ball's still live". Catcher waits for batter to disrobe (elbow armor, shin protector, batting gloves) and leave everything in a nice little pile at the plate and saunter down to first base. Catcher then returns the ball to pitcher. Ump calls time asks for the ball back. Catcher and Ump then dance a little to figure out the exchange of baseballs, catcher tosses his back, Ump tosses his to the dugout and misses, ball goes rolling down the railing. Then the pitcher rubs up the ball, walks around the mound a little, grabs some rosin, take a deep breath and then toes the rubber.

Current practice, Ball 4 in the dirt, quick exchange, ball back in pitchers hand before batter reaches first base, we're ready to play. No harm No foul.

I would think that if a MLB player/club tried to advance to second on a walk with or without a runner at 3rd, someones getting a Rawlings tattoo

[Ump153]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

I disagree that the managers walk out onto the field in a MLB game before the BR reaches first on a walk.

Wow. You disagree that something happens that in reality happens nearly every day in one MLB game or another.

This thread has now reached the absurd.