Can a ball in the dirt be a strike?

WestMichBlue · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 31, 2003, 12:41am

ASA Women's FP. Confusion in the offensive dugout; no batter appears. PU is getting impatient; yells for a batter, none appear.

Finally tells F1 to pitch as batter is coming out of dugout. F1 throws two bounces to F2, PU calls strike.

Def coach yells "That's in the dirt. You can't call that a strike. You have to call the pitch where it is!"

PU says "No matter where it goes, I can call it a strike."

Who is right? (Can you answer without looking in your rule book? I couldn't get it right until I looked it up.)

WMB

bethsdad · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 31, 2003, 01:38am

Anything is a strike when the batter refuses to get in the box. At least in Little League. I would assume it's the same (at least untill someone tells me I'm wrong) Little League6.02 c .....the umpire shall order the pitcher to pitch,and shall call strike on each such pitch.

[Edited by bethsdad on Jul 31st, 2003 at 10:30 AM]

Dakota · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 31, 2003, 02:04am

In that situation, the proper thing for the umpire to do is to just call a strike, not call for a pitch. No pitch is necessary (speaking ASA).

Since he called for the pitch, he just made trouble for himself, but he can call it a strike.

IRISHMAFIA · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 31, 2003, 06:42am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
In that situation, the proper thing for the umpire to do is to just call a strike, not call for a pitch. No pitch is necessary (speaking ASA).

Since he called for the pitch, he just made trouble for himself, but he can call it a strike.

As discussed in another thread, the umpire CANNOT call for a pitch without a batter IN THE BOX.

Simply call the strike. This sounds like one of your veterans who doesn't go to the appropriate clinics or already knows everything, so they go more to socialize than actually learn how to umpire a ball game.

chuck chopper · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 31, 2003, 07:28am

Sometimes we can be our own worse enemy. If batter refuses to get in the box, call a strike. If team is a bit confused and forgot who the next batter is...yeah its bad..but don't I would hope we don't add to the problem by calling a strike on someone who is hurrying to get her bat/gloves etc because of the coaches changes or perhaps its the first inning. Just take a deep breath and have some fun.

WestMichBlue · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 31, 2003, 09:51am

OK, you guys got it. The answer obviously is that they both were wrong - no pitch is required.

I didn't get into the discussion, but I realized later that I was mistaking this with the call of the pitch when a batter steps out and the umpire refused to call time. There you allow the pitcher to throw and call ball/strike depending on the position of the ball. So I had to go to the rule book to get myself clear.

Now - isn't there a rule somewhere - maybe different rule book - maybe Baseball - where you have a pitcher throw and it is called a strike regardless of it's location? Or is this another old myth that won't go away.

Mike - do you know my partner? "This sounds like one of your veterans who doesn't go to the appropriate clinics or already knows everything, so they go more to socialize than actually learn how to umpire a ball game."

How 'bout fly ball caught outside the foul lines. "FOUL - CATCH!" In his world it is a foul ball caught for an out. When we get into discussion about "foul ball is dead ball" or "foul ball is a strike" (when less than 2 strikes), or "you can't get an out on a foul ball," it doesn't make a difference. He has situations where foul ball is dead, and where it is not! This is the latter, because he will allow a runner to advance on a foul ball caught for an out.

This happened last night. 2 strikes on batter, then foul tip. Hands go up and "FOUL - BATTER IS OUT!" Oh yes, a foul tip is a foul ball! But this one isn't dead ball. I just grimace and turn away.

I'm BU in "A", ball hit to fence. I've got the B-R all the way to 3B; I coming into 3B looking to the outfield for the throw. I run into someone - it's my partner! He says "I've got 3B; you are supposed to peel off at 2B and go home." That one I have finally trained him to stay home.

But - in spite of his stubborn idiosyncrasies , he is a very good umpire and I enjoy working with him.

WMB

LDUB · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 31, 2003, 12:56pm

I don't know ASA rules, but for OBR this is the right call. But for FED the umpire should not tell the pitcher to pitch, he should just call a strike on the batter.

shipwreck · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 31, 2003, 05:13pm

Softball NFHS rules says under 7-3-1 effect. If the batter steps out of the box or holds up her hand to request time and the pitcher legally delivers the ball, it shall be called a strike and the ball remains alive.
It doesn't say it has to be in the strike zone, just legally delivered. Dave

WestMichBlue · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 31, 2003, 10:03pm

"it shall be called a strike "

Good point, Shipwreck, and I'll try to remember that when I am again calling NFHS games. However, this game is under ASA rules, and ASA only says to call the pitch. Doesn't say whether to call it a ball or strike, just to call it. 7.3.E Effect.

WMB

Dakota · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 31, 2003, 11:30pm

Quote:

Originally posted by shipwreck
Softball NFHS rules says under 7-3-1 effect. If the batter steps out of the box or holds up her hand to request time and the pitcher legally delivers the ball, it shall be called a strike and the ball remains alive.
It doesn't say it has to be in the strike zone, just legally delivered. Dave

However, that isn't what happened here - the batter never entered the box in the first place. So, the pitcher cannot legally deliver a pitch.

SC Ump · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 01, 2003, 07:03pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dakota

Quote:

However, that isn't what happened here...

Good question to refresh us on. I pretty sure that back in '93 or so, NFHS stated that if the batter did not enter the box that the umpire should becon the pitcher to deliver the ball and "shall" call a strike. I remember that I missed the question on an exam and later found the answer in the Case Book. (My first rookie mistake: ignoring the case book while studying.)

Currently NFHS seems to agree with other codes and the 7.3.1 Penalty states in part, "For failure of the batter to be ready within 20 seconds after the ball has been returned to the pitcher, the umpire shall call a strike. If it is the third strike, the umpire shall call time and declare the batter out."

By the way... how did the "I've got 3B; you are supposed to peel off at 2B and go home" mechanic ever get started? I think the next partner that suggest that to me, I am going to counter with: "Let's have the BU take the call at 1B, the PU then take 2B, BU take 3B and PU take home." That seems to make just about as much sense.

CecilOne · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 01, 2003, 07:23pm

Quote:

Originally posted by LDUB
I don't know ASA rules, but for OBR this is the right call. But for FED the umpire should not tell the pitcher to pitch, he should just call a strike on the batter.

There is no OBR in SOFTball.

CecilOne · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 01, 2003, 07:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by SC Ump
By the way... how did the "I've got 3B; you are supposed to peel off at 2B and go home" mechanic ever get started? I think the next partner that suggest that to me, I am going to counter with: "Let's have the BU take the call at 1B, the PU then take 2B, BU take 3B and PU take home." That seems to make just about as much sense. [/B]

It certainly doen't make sense with a BR. There was a time whne with the only runner on 2nd and in B for SP, we tried PU covering 3rd (being closer) and BU covering home but gave it up.

nelyak · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 07, 2003, 01:03am

ASA FP or SP
Rule 7 Sec. 5.b A ball is called by the umpire for each legally pitched ball that:
#4 the batter swings at, after the ball hits the ground or home plate.

so according to rule this is a ball. The umpire should have never called for a pitch.

CecilOne · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 07, 2003, 08:31am

Quote:

Originally posted by nelyak
ASA FP or SP
Rule 7 Sec. 5.b A ball is called by the umpire for each legally pitched ball that:
#4 the batter swings at, after the ball hits the ground or home plate.

so according to rule this is a ball. The umpire should have never called for a pitch.

The operative word is "after". A swing and miss before touching the ground is a strike.

Wrap-up question: Is there any code that requires the pitcher to deliver a pitch for a delay-type penalty strike?