Catch/Appeal

[tjones1]

R1. R1 is off with the pitch. Ball is hit into the gap. F8 makes a great catch. R1, who is in between 2nd and 3rd starts to retreat. He re-touches 2nd. However, F8 rockets a wild throw back into the infield which goes into the dugout. At the time the ball enters DBT, R1 is in between 1st and 2nd (on his way back to 1st).

Since the ball is dead, has R1 lost his chance to tag-up; therefore, can be out on appeal?

So you have, R1 awarded two bases but subject to be called out on appeal?

Thanks for your help.

[UmpJM]

tjones1,

In the sitch you describe, the R1 is NOT subject to an appeal under ANY rule code - as long as he proceeds to and touches 1B prior to (again) touching 2B.

If, on the other hand, had the R1 had still been between 2B & 3B at the time the throw went out of play, under FED rules he would NOT be able to "complete" his retouch of 1B, while under OBR rules he would.

JM

[johnnyg08]

are you sure coach JM? wouldn't 3B be his next base? This part of appeals is confusing to me between the rule sets

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

tjones1,

In the sitch you describe, the R1 is NOT subject to an appeal under ANY rule code - as long as he proceeds to and touches 1B prior to (again) touching 2B.

If, on the other hand, had the R1 had still been between 2B & 3B at the time the throw went out of play, under FED rules he would NOT be able to "complete" his retouch of 1B, while under OBR rules he would.

JM

So lets say that in a FED game R1 is between 2B and 3B at the ToT....

1. I doubt the defense or their coaches would figure it out that he can be subject to an appeal at 1B. (Very few coaches around here would know this)

2. What if R1 tries to go back to retouch 1B? As BU, do you simply ignore him or verbally state that he can't retouch?

[jwwashburn]

These rules have always been confusing because they vary from code to code. Since you may go a year or more of umpiring without seeing it, it is hard to remember, as well. I actually cannot remember the last time I saw this type of play-maybe 6 or 7 years ago?

I have always thought it to be a very strange thing to see a guy going backwards to touch a base when time has been called and he has been awarded bases. It just looks weird.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by zm1283

So lets say that in a FED game R1 is between 2B and 3B at the ToT....

1. I doubt the defense or their coaches would figure it out that he can be subject to an appeal at 1B. (Very few coaches around here would know this)

2. What if R1 tries to go back to retouch 1B? As BU, do you simply ignore him or verbally state that he can't retouch?

The ball remains in play until the ball enters DBT. The TOT is only used for a reference point for base awards. If R1 was between 2B and 3B at TOT, R1 could still retouch 2B and 1B. R1 would only lose his right to retouch 2B and 1B if he didn't move until the ball entered DBT. If R1 was between 2B and 1B when the ball entered DBT, after retouching 1B, R1 would only get 3B.

[johnnyg08]

correct, but I think JM is saying that if he touches 2b, he can't return to retouch 1b...my contention is that the base that he couldn't touch would be 3b to unable him to legally retouch 1b. I'm not saying he's wrong...but I think the OBR interp is what I said in this post...the fed post wouldn't really make sense but it is FED I guess.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

are you sure coach JM? wouldn't 3B be his next base? This part of appeals is confusing to me between the rule sets

In FED if you are on or beyond the next base from the one you started from at the time the ball went into DBT you cannot return to retouch the original base, the defense can make a dead ball appeal, and you're screwed. Why? Who knows? No one else does it that way.

In OBR if you touch the next base from your current position after the time the ball went into DBT you cannot return to touch your original base.

In OBR if the runner is awarded two bases from his position at the time of the throw - subject to revision upon a retouch. So if a runner is between 2B and 3B, but has to retouch 1B, you award him home - then change it to 3B IF he goes back to retouch 1B. The rationale is to not do something that would alert the defense to the appeal possibility. If he doesn't go back and retouch he is subject to appeal. If the appeal is made he is out. If no appeal is made he scores.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

are you sure coach JM? wouldn't 3B be his next base? This part of appeals is confusing to me between the rule sets

JM has the correct answer.

In FED, a runner cannot legally retouch if he is on of byond his "advance base" WHEN the ball becomes dead. (And, yes, somewhere in the rules, there's an exception to prevent a smart F9 from intentionally throwing the ball out of play to "trap" R1 who has advanced to far.)

In OBR, a runner cannot legally retouch if he continues to advance to the next base AFTER the ball becomes dead.

So, in zm1283's play (R1 between second and third when the ball goes dead, but returns to first): In FED, let him run, but call him out on appeal if the defense appeals his failure to tag up at first. IF the defense doesn't appeal, leave him at third.

In OBR, the retouch is legal, so any appeal at first would be denied. The runner is awarded third. (MLBUM has it as something like, the runner is first awarded home, then the award is changed to third if R1 retoouches first.)

[johnnyg08]

makes sense fellas...thank you...hope I never see it.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

So, in zm1283's play (R1 between second and third when the ball goes dead, but returns to first): In FED, let him run, but call him out on appeal if the defense appeals his failure to tag up at first. IF the defense doesn't appeal, leave him at third.

But what do you do when he tries to return to 1B to retouch when he's not allowed to?

Also, wouldn't he be awarded home if he's between 2B and 3B when the ball is released from F8? So do you tell him he can't retouch first, and award him home and let the defense figure it out from there?

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by zm1283

But what do you do when he tries to return to 1B to retouch when he's not allowed to?

Also, wouldn't he be awarded home if he's between 2B and 3B when the ball is released from F8? So do you tell him he can't retouch first, and award him home and let the defense figure it out from there?

Good question. Is it that he would be called out if he tried to go retouch first or, it makes no difference? It is a strange rule.

[johnnyg08]

2 bases from his last legally occupied base. 1B is the last base legally occupied since he has a retouch obligation at 1B on a caught fly ball.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

2 bases from his last legally occupied base. 1B is the last base legally occupied since he has a retouch obligation at 1B on a caught fly ball.

How does he have a retouch obligation if he isn't allowed to retouch the base in the first place?

Have I mentioned that I HATE FED rules?

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

In FED if you are on or beyond the next base from the one you started from at the time the ball went into DBT you cannot return to retouch the original base, the defense can make a dead ball appeal, and you're screwed. Why? Who knows? No one else does it that way.

In OBR if you touch the next base from your current position after the time the ball went into DBT you cannot return to touch your original base.

In OBR if the runner is awarded two bases from his position at the time of the throw - subject to revision upon a retouch. So if a runner is between 2B and 3B, but has to retouch 1B, you award him home - then change it to 3B IF he goes back to retouch 1B. The rationale is to not do something that would alert the defense to the appeal possibility. If he doesn't go back and retouch he is subject to appeal. If the appeal is made he is out. If no appeal is made he scores.

Great explanation, Rich! I like the way you worded the difference between FED & OBR. If you don't mind, I would like to use this explanation in our next rules clinic for recruits.