Gameplay Situation I need a ruling on

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

J/R advantageous 4th out appeal play page citations: 20,32,44,49,77,87

Here is the relevant portion of a post by someone identified as "Wendlestedt" at the Wendlestedt message board:

This is a base (first) never reached, not one which was not touched or not properly tagged up from. There is no appeal for never reaching a base. Unfortunately, neither Jaska and Roder have been in the game for sometime now, and even when they were, they were so analytical with the rules that they often failed to get what the rulebook intended for. That is what I expect happened in this case. They are what we call at umpire school "rule book lawyers".

Walk off Walk - Umpire School Forum

[Rich]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

J/R advantageous 4th out appeal play page citations: 20,32,44,49,77,87

One citation I will happily ignore.

[starman]

I was not thinking of an appeal play. In the orignal play description, I was thining that the third baseman could throw to first to get a fourth out before the batter reaches first.

I just looked in the MLB rule book, and I confess that I did not find anything that clearly justifies this.

That is why I usually just read this board and keep my mouth shut

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by starman

I was thining that the third baseman could throw to first to get a fourth out before the batter reaches first.

"I'll do the thining around here, Babalooey!" - Quickdraw McGraw

[alex7]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

By rule, if the BR did not reach 1B safely where he would be the third out, no runner can score.

In the OP, Fivesdadda is asking if R3 could score if R3 crossed the plate prior to R2 being tagged out for the third out. If 1B was open and the BR never safely attained 1B, R3's run would not count even though R3 crossed HP prior to R2 being tagged.

I think the rule is no run can score IF the BR is put out before reaching first, not if he doesn't reach first safely. Two different things it seems, and importantly so.

Other posters have shown that not touching first on the OP play is not appealable, so I don't see how you wouldn't count the run nopachunts. Whether he touches first or not is irrelevant on the non-force 3rd out of R2, and the defense can't appeal the BR not touching first. Thus, score the run.

[bob jenkins]

This play has been around since Al Gore invented the interwebs:

R2, R3, two outs. B5 grounds to F6. As B5 runs toward first, he stumbles, breaks his ankle and lies writhing in pain on the ground. The following happens in order: R3 touches the plate. F6 throws the ball to F5 who tags R2 (three outs). F5 throws to F3 who steps on first (4 outs?).

Does the run count?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

This play has been around since Al Gore invented the interwebs:

R2, R3, two outs. B5 grounds to F6. As B5 runs toward first, he stumbles, breaks his ankle and lies writhing in pain on the ground. The following happens in order: R3 touches the plate. F6 throws the ball to F5 who tags R2 (three outs). F5 throws to F3 who steps on first (4 outs?).

Does the run count?

Day game or night game?

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

This play has been around since Al Gore invented the interwebs:

R2, R3, two outs. B5 grounds to F6. As B5 runs toward first, he stumbles, breaks his ankle and lies writhing in pain on the ground. The following happens in order: R3 touches the plate. F6 throws the ball to F5 who tags R2 (three outs). F5 throws to F3 who steps on first (4 outs?).

Does the run count?

no run?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Day game or night game?

Later afternoon game that ends in the evening.

[johnnyg08]

Directly from the MLBUM page 42 in relation to rule 4.09 OBR:

1. No run shall score during a play in which the third out is made by the batter-runner before he touches first base.
2. No run shall score during a play in which the third out is a force out.
3. Following runners are not affected by an act of a preceeding runner unless two are out.

It doesn't really talk about the advantageous 4th out appeal here. I think they would have to execute the 4th out appeal in order to nullify the run based on #1.

[johnnyg08]

From OBR rule 7.10, page 74:

Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent "fourth out"." If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half-inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has "left the field" when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or clubhouse.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

From OBR rule 7.10, page 74:

Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent "fourth out"." If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half-inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has "left the field" when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or clubhouse.

Please re-read my post #12 as to what are acceptable appeals for an apparent "fourth out."

2.00 An APPEAL is the act of a fielder in claiming violation of the rules by the offensive team.

There is no rule that requires the BR to touch 1st base after 3 outs have been recorded. No violation, no appeal.

[johnnyg08]

okay, so are you saying that the run scores? minus the 4th out appeal?

[jicecone]

An appeal is for a violation of the rules or a base running error. What error happened here? He didn't miss the base because he never got there to begin with.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

okay, so are you saying that the run scores? minus the 4th out appeal?

With the classic OP that Bob posted.

R2, R3, two outs. B5 grounds to F6. As B5 runs toward first, he stumbles, breaks his ankle and lies writhing in pain on the ground. The following happens in order: R3 touches the plate. F6 throws the ball to F5 who tags R2 (three outs). F5 throws to F3 who steps on first (4 outs?).

Does the run count?

Yes, I am saying the run scores.

The appeal is not recognized as it is not an appealable offense.