Gameplay Situation I need a ruling on

[Fivesdadda]

Here's the situation...
Two outs, runners on second and third. There's a ground ball hit to short and both runners run on contact. The shortstop throws to third and the third baseman completes the tag play on the runner trying to advance to third for the final out of the inning. The batter-runner didn't make it to first before the tag was made, but for arguments sake we'll say the runner from third did cross the plate before the tag was made. Does the run score? Or does the run not count because of the batter not getting to first and the third out of the inning being made?

Any help and/or references to an official rulebook would be incredibly helpful. Thanks guys.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Fivesdadda

Here's the situation...
Two outs, runners on second and third. There's a ground ball hit to short and both runners run on contact. The shortstop throws to third and the third baseman completes the tag play on the runner trying to advance to third for the final out of the inning. The batter-runner didn't make it to first before the tag was made, but for arguments sake we'll say the runner from third did cross the plate before the tag was made. Does the run score? Or does the run not count because of the batter not getting to first and the third out of the inning being made?

Any help and/or references to an official rulebook would be incredibly helpful. Thanks guys.

The batter-runner's status is unimportant as the out wasn't on him. R2 wasn't forced to third, so this becomes a time play. Score the run if R3 crossed before R2 was tagged.

Basic rules principles, so you should look up "time play" and "force" and the section that deals with runs scoring.

[johnnyg08]

What did the umpire(s) tell you last night?

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

What did the umpire(s) tell you last night?

Now that's a loaded question.

[jicecone]

OBR 4.09 "A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases."

Not sure your going to find a definition of Time-Play in the rule book but, as Rich has stated, it does make reference to the reason the run would score.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Rule 4.09 (a) and see 4.09 COMMENT.

[jwwashburn]

I was BU a couple of years ago on a play very similar to this.

My partner and I were working our third game in VERY hot heat.

He lined it up perfectly and said, "The Run Counts" and pointed.

Then he looked sheepishly at me and said just as loudly, "Of course, because there are now only two outs."

Everybody cracked up.

[starman]

Note that the batter runner still needs to tag first. Otherwise, the defense could get a fourth out at first base. This would nullify the run.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by starman

Note that the batter runner still needs to tag first. Otherwise, the defense could get a fourth out at first base. This would nullify the run.

I would LOVE to see this rule.

FWIW J/R is wrong on this in my opinion.

[johnnyg08]

What page in J/R...I want to check out their take

[Ump Rube]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

I would LOVE to see this rule.

FWIW J/R is wrong on this in my opinion.

Not sure what you mean by this? Rule 7.10d covers 4th outs. Is the "rule" you are referring too the interp from J/R? Please expand on this as I see the defense appealing that the B/R never touched 1B to nullify a run to be a legal & smart play.

[UmpTTS43]

Johnnyg - I don't own a J/R manual, but I have been told that they consider a "fourth out appeal" of the BR not reaching 1st a legal appeal.

Rube - 7.10d deals with a missed home plate appeal.

Briefly, I am of the opinion, that once the third out has been recorded, the BR no longer has the responsibility to touch 1st base. There are only four types of appeals that can result in a runner being called out. Out of the four, only three can result in an umpire recognizing an apparent "fourth out." The four are: 1) failure to properly tag up on a caught fly ball, 2) missed base, 3) failure of BR "immediately" returning to 1st after over running it, and 4) missed home plate. Number 3 is irrelevant due to the fact that the BR need not return to 1st base after the third out has been recorded. There is no appeal for "not reaching a base" after three outs have been recorded. An umpire cannot use abandonment in this case either, since abandonment is not an appeal play, thus resulting in a "time" play.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Ump Rube

Not sure what you mean by this? Rule 7.10d covers 4th outs. Is the "rule" you are referring too the interp from J/R? Please expand on this as I see the defense appealing that the B/R never touched 1B to nullify a run to be a legal & smart play.

4.09(b) and PENALTY is only applicable when it's the winning run in the bottom of the last inning, or the bottom of an extra inning. Then the BR must touch first or the run is nullified. At the end of any other inning, the BR is not required by rule to touch 1st base. If the run scores before the tag on an unforced runner, it counts and position of the BR is irrelevant.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

Briefly, I am of the opinion, that once the third out has been recorded, the BR no longer has the responsibility to touch 1st base.

I agree with your opinion if no runners have scored during the play. I will disagree if a runner has scored where the BR was retired for the third out. By rule, if the BR did not reach 1B safely where he would be the third out, no runner can score.

In the OP, Fivesdadda is asking if R3 could score if R3 crossed the plate prior to R2 being tagged out for the third out. If 1B was open and the BR never safely attained 1B, R3's run would not count even though R3 crossed HP prior to R2 being tagged.

[johnnyg08]

J/R advantageous 4th out appeal play page citations: 20,32,44,49,77,87