Crash Rule

[swkansasref33]

I felt like i blew this one, so i overturned it, and my rule books are buried in boxes somewhere with my recent move.
Jr Legion Ball game.

Play at the plate, catcher goes up the line to somewhere probably around the edge of the circle, player trying to score from second, braces himself and runs into the catcher, who at the last second was pulled into the running lane trying to field the ball. I originally called the runner safe due to catcher being pulled up the line, V coach asked me to clarify my interp of the rule, and i got with my partner, and decided to call the runner out, and warn him next time to avoid the catcher. I ate this one, as my partner missed a call on a play at third. After overturning my call, 1st base coach of home team comes running up to me and screams. I didnt dump him, and i should have, so ill be kicking myself for a few days over that, then move on. partner and i both had EJ's on different sitchs.
I ONLY WANT CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, AND NO BASHING OF OTHER'S OPINIONS, AS IT ONLY WASTES TIME OF OTHER PEOPLE READING THIS. THANK YOU!!!!

[kylejt]

I WILL BASH IF I WANT TO!

But first, what rules are you playing under, as it makes a difference.

[kylejt]

"braces himself" as in lowers his shoulder? If so, this could be flagrant contact, and subject to an interference call, and possibly an ejection.

If not, it sounds like a train wreck, as the ball took the fielder into the runner's path, and the runner was just protecting himself.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by kylejt

I WILL BASH IF I WANT TO!

But first, what rules are you playing under, as it makes a difference.

If you read the post, he stated that this was Jr Legion so that's OBR with FPSR.

But the poster has put restrictions on his post so there is no sense in answering him. Anything that is posted will be construed as "bashing" because it is not what the poster wants to hear.

[mbyron]

I don't know the Jr. Legion rule set, but I suspect that it includes not only FPSR but some kind of "slide or avoid contact" rule. From your description, I can't tell whether the runner complied with that rule. You say both that the runner braced for a collision, which suggests that he intended one, and that the catcher was pulled into the runner's path by the ball, which suggests that he was avoiding contact.

You have to decide which of these is correct. The former is INT, MC, runner out and ejected. The latter is a train wreck in OBR (possibly OBS in FED, depending on when and where F2 had the ball).

It sounds as if you tried to split the difference on the field, which doesn't really work.

[GoodwillRef]

The runner is trying to score and the throw is up the line and pulls the catcher into the path of the runner...so we are asking a runner going full speead to change direction on a dime to try to avoid a catcher who is moving and not stationary...we can take "bracing himself" as trying to protect himself...for me this is a hard play to fault the runner.

[ctblu40]

According to the American Legion rules, there is no call to be made here. I say that with the realization that many of these situations are HTBT. Jr Legion follows the same code as Sr. with regards to collisions. As long as tghe runner is making a legititimate attempt to reach the base (in a non-force situation), a collision is possible. Here is the rule from the American Legion Baseball web site:

E. Collisions. The intent of this rule is to encourage base runners and defensive players to avoid collisions whenever possible.
1. When there is a collision between a runner and a fielder who clearly is in possession of the ball, the umpire shall judge:
a) Whether the collision by the runner was avoidable (could the runner have reached the base without colliding) or unavoidable (the runner’s path to the base was blocked) or
b) Whether the runner was actually attempting to reach the base (plate) or was he attempting to dislodge the ball from the fielder.

PENALTY - If the runner,
a) could have avoided the collision and reached the base, or
b) attempted to dislodge the ball,
the runner shall be declared out, even if the fielder loses possession of the ball. The ball is dead and all base runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the interference.

Ruling 1: - If the fielder blocks the path of the base runner to the base (plate), the runner may make contact, slide into, or collide with a fielder as long as the runner is making a legitimate attempt to reach the base or plate.

Ruling 2: - If the collision by the runner was flagrant, the runner shall be declared out and ejected from the contest. The ball shall be declared dead.

2. If the defensive player blocks the base (plate) or base line without the ball, obstruction shall be called. The runner is safe and a delayed dead ball shall be called. Ruling: - If the runner collides flagrantly, he shall be declared safe on the obstruction, but will be ejected from the contest. The ball is dead.

Clarification Malicious Contact. Any player who, in the judgment of the umpire, maliciously runs into another player is automatically ejected and is declared out. The American Legion is concerned that some coaches may not have explained to their players that malicious contact is illegal. The majority of intentional collisions occur at home plate where the catcher is blocking the plate. Runners should be instructed to slide directly to the plate, or away from the catcher, to avoid making contact with the catcher, especially when the defender is in possession of the ball. Umpires have been instructed that, if there is any intentional and excessive force or if there is any intent to injure another player, the offending player shall be ejected from the game. The malicious contact penalty will be enforced whether committed by an offensive or defensive player. Any player ejected by an umpire is automatically removed from the Tournament, unless the Tournament Director reinstates that player.

So in short, tell your F2's to protect themselves. But make sure the runners know it's NOT open season to try to kill or maim.

[jicecone]

"When there is a collision between a runner and a fielder who clearly is in possession of the ball, the umpire shall judge:"

Maybe this discussion needs to begin right here. Do we have obstruction on the catcher for this thread?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jicecone

"When there is a collision between a runner and a fielder who clearly is in possession of the ball, the umpire shall judge:"

Maybe this discussion needs to begin right here. Do we have obstruction on the catcher for this thread?

Could be. The collision rule above seems to be the NCAA rule. If the obstruction rule is also the NCAA rule, then I'd agree that this could be obstruction, or it could be a train wreck.

And, to the OP, stating "jr legion" doesn't really help with the rules code -- there's some discussion on another boad where some state is playing by one rules set for "jr legion" and another rules set fro "sr. legion."

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

If you read the post, he stated that this was Jr Legion so that's OBR with FPSR.

Oz, if you noticed when his post was modified, to include Jr Legion, you'll know he did it after I requested it.



It comes down to the reason the runner was bracing himself. Was it for self protection, or to drop the catcher like a sack of dirt?

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by swkansasref33

I ONLY WANT CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, AND NO BASHING OF OTHER'S OPINIONS, AS IT ONLY WASTES TIME OF OTHER PEOPLE READING THIS. THANK YOU!!!!

"Bashing" is an oversimplification that dismisses criticism as being baseless.

Perhaps you should keep your simplistic judgments and your stodgy posturing and your CAPITAL LETTERS to yourself, or save them for a simple-minded audience.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by swkansasref33

I ONLY WANT CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, AND NO BASHING OF OTHER'S OPINIONS, AS IT ONLY WASTES TIME OF OTHER PEOPLE READING THIS. THANK YOU!!!!

Here is some constructive criticism:

[DG]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Could be. The collision rule above seems to be the NCAA rule. If the obstruction rule is also the NCAA rule, then I'd agree that this could be obstruction, or it could be a train wreck.

And, to the OP, stating "jr legion" doesn't really help with the rules code -- there's some discussion on another boad where some state is playing by one rules set for "jr legion" and another rules set fro "sr. legion."

Collision and Obstruction, in American Legion, are same as NCAA.

Last couple years here, Jr. Legion played FED and Sr. Legion played Sr. Legion. This year the Jrs are playing Legion as well, with minor differences.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by DG

Collision and Obstruction, in American Legion, are same as NCAA.

Are you sure that OBS is the same in Legion as NCAA? Could you post either a link to or the text of the rule? I thought they (Legion) used the OBR obstruction rule.

[DG]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

Are you sure that OBS is the same in Legion as NCAA? Could you post either a link to or the text of the rule? I thought they (Legion) used the OBR obstruction rule.

Suggest you google on American Legion Baseball, download the rules, and let me know if I am reading incorrectly.

My download says "if the defensive player blocks the base (plate) or base line without the ball, obstruction shall be called."